MARK Oh, this is very exciting. I think we're there. It's very exciting, Yeah, so I can see us on the real thing. So we're live. I'll turn that off. Well, good morning, everybody. Thank you for joining us on Mind Monkeys. Welcome, Episode 2, the first with a guest. What a guest. It is the phenomenal Janine Coombes. Let me say a few words about Janine. Janine is an offer positioning expert who helps co-shape people like me. I guess I might be your ideal client: actually, to earn more without working more. She's worked with huge brands like E Orange Europe Car has a business degree, postgraduate marketing diploma, regularly speaks on huge stages. Atomicon, You Are the Media Higher Voltage. What's the next big stage? You can tell us guess. Author of The Easy Yes. It's the only book I read twice last year. That's how good this is, And I was just flicking through. actually, I scribbled all over it. Is that OK? Am I allowed to go in there? Scribbles, doodles, stick things to it. I did all of those things because there was so much good stuff in there, and you've got your own video series which we can come back to in a second. But how are you doing? JANINE All right, all right, MARK It's Friday, Fri-yay, Fri-yay, Yeah, it's almost the weekend. Have you got anything exciting, a romantic planned for Valentine's weekend? JANINE No, my husband and I are very unromantic when it comes to Friday, the 14th. Friday the 14th: No, I'm thinking Friday the 13th. That's today, February the 14th. No, we don't do anything for Valentine's Day. I was planning a very long walk tomorrow, but I might See how the weather is. Yeah, that's about it really. What about you? MARK I'm playing a gig, so it's about as romantic as I get. I'm going to be hidden behind a drum kit. JANINE When you say gig, that makes me feel like it's probably in the late evening. MARK That will be an evening thing. Yeah, I'm on the radio tomorrow morning as well. That's a completely selfish topic to get into. So, we'll talk about. JANINE Burn in the candle at both ends, Mark, Watch out, MARK It's rock and roll. It's the rock and roll lifestyle journey. But enough about that. Enough about me. Let's talk, mind monkeys. Well, that is what we are here to do. So, as you were my first guest, there is no real formula here. We're just going to have a little wonder around and amusement about this idea, of those little hesitations and fears, that kind of getting away. But I'm going to invite you to start with just one kind of question and we'll take it from there. And the question is kind of around this idea of meeting our monkeys. So, in the work that you do with these coach-shaped people, what would you say are the most kind of common wobbles or fears that kind of come into your conversations? JANINE Oh, I mean it depends on the client, but I'm just going to throw some things out there, A resistance to being visible, to selling, to being overtly selling. I mean you know lots of them echo my journey and things that I struggle with and have struggled with. But you absorb other people's opinions and you think gosh well, so and so complained about people being sales salesy and and maybe they're talking about me and maybe that means I shouldn't put any sales posts out there, or maybe I shouldn't talk to that person you know, and it sounds like that person I spoke to needs me. But I’m not going to tell them that I help them with that stuff because that would be pushy like that. that stuff is all very common and I feel that resistance myself like it's. MARK Why do you think we do? Why do we not want to be pushy about the thing that we're actually pretty good at and the world needs, JANINE Because it's that word, It's the framing of it, isn't it? And I think it's wanting to be nice and not wanting to bother people, And especially for coaches. This is one of the reasons I love working with coachy people, because they're really good people and they want to help people. But there's this funny little vicious circle they get caught up in where they want to help people. but if you're going to coach people, they really need to be ready, so you can't push something on them. convincing somebody they want coaching is silly, because they're going to not be ready for it and then they're not going to join you on the process and it's not going to be right for them, etc.etc. so you've got this funny little. um, you know, dance where you're like. well, I think they need me. but if I say I think you need me is that too, and sometimes they're right like you, you can't convince somebody they need coaching. they need to meet you, don't they? and and participate in the journey with you and be ready for it, and you need to be right for them. So, there's this. there's a grain of truth in it, but that's why I like that kind of coaching, because you know helping coaches, because I resonate with that struggle and I've sort of I've got ways and means. MARK If you're happy to kind of talk about your story, tell us about the ways and means. How do you find that balance between visibility- something that you are very good at, by the way, because obviously your content is fantastic. You're very good on video, as I've told you many times, because what you do very well and I think flipping the kind of the monkey in terms of that - this is something the world needs. This is something I'm good at. What am I prepared to do bravely in demonstrate that Your video content is a prime example of someone very much being themselves in a way that speaks to their audience perfectly, or as perfectly as any content can be? So, come on, tell us your tricks and tips and your ways and means. JANINE Yes, Well, first off, thank you for saying that. But if you look at my recent content, I have not been doing video as much as I should be doing MARK Interesting word. good, JANINE Yeah, yeah, um, so that's part of my journey is. um, you know, set on my business tenish years ago. um, I mean, you know, could you call it a business? I didn't really realize, I didn't, really, I didn't have a business mindset on. I kind of set up this thing where I knew I wanted to help people with their marketing, because I had the experience and the training. what have you? and these people didn't? and when I say these people, I mean like any service-based business on the planet. I sort of thought that was my audience, which I think is also a typical like go broad, which I don't think there's anything wrong with that like go broad to begin with, see who you, who you gel with and what you like doing. And when it came to visibility, I remember the first to launch my business properly. I did this local in-person workshop that was free for local business owners in my area, which was Surbiton at the time, ......... I remember putting a photo of me, you know, which my husband had taken. My husband's quite good at photography. So, we did a little photo shoot. I felt so uncomfortable doing that photo shoot And I picked this photo to put on the flyer and I felt like a complete arse, like I thought: who the hell do you think you are putting a photo like a massive photo? it was like, oh my god. and it made my heartbeat so hard. um, I don't know what made me do it. You know, I just felt like they needed to see my face, but I wasn't even looking at the camera. I was like yeah, um, yeah, so that was the beginning. and then I have to say, for me, like there might be um, there's all sorts of reasons why people don't want to be visible, and some of them might be like deep seated in trauma from childhood. And what have you? For me? I think it stemmed from the, you know, being told not to show off and that kind of thing. And you don't boast and you don't talk about yourself and you don't go on about yourself and you don't show off. But the story about the videos, how I got on video, was that a friend of mine who was a LinkedIn trainer… We were both heavy users of LinkedIn, and she put a video out and she got some feedback from somebody- unsolicited feedback- saying: do you know what? I'm a video expert and if we'd be open to it, I've got some feedback on your videos to make them a bit better. And she's like, okay, let's have it. And he was like, right, well, you don't look old enough to be credible, like she was in her thirties. Like what do you want. Your voice is too high. You might want to lower your voice. You need to probably wear more makeup, and my favourite was wear different clothes and perhaps a set of pearls. MARK Wow! JANINE It was like what Like? who's unbelievable wearing pearls? It was just so random and her response was very mature and she was like oh, this is interesting. I got this feedback. What do we think about this? Like? I don't want to have an emotional reaction. Do you think there's any truth in this? Do you think a man would have got this feedback from somebody, whereas my reaction was: this is hysterical. I need to spoof it. Yeah, I need to spoof it. So, I put on a twin set and pearls and tons as much makeup as I could possibly put on, and I put on a stupid voice and I said: oh, this is the way to be credible. you know, let's all have a credibility, makeover, when we're very, very credible. and I couldn't. I couldn't stop myself, and at the time nobody- well, barely anybody- was doing video, let alone silly videos on LinkedIn. So, it cut through like a hot knife through butter, and I didn't like… my heart was pounding. I'm already getting like oh, just thinking about that first time when I publish, But I couldn't stop myself. It was like I have to put this out into the world. And I was so nervous and the response was amazing. It was like what I've never seen such— you know somebody being funny on LinkedIn. What is going on Like this was 8 years ago or 7 years ago. So, it was very unusual. um, and one woman even messaged me and said: “Um, it's the first time I’ve laughed in like 6 months because I’ve been going through cancer treatment, and you actually made me laugh.” Thank you very much. oh, my god, I need to do this. I need to do more of this. it's not just me, it's not just a selfish thing, and I think maybe that is the key to a lot of visibility hangups. is it feels all about you, It feels selfish and frivolous and boasty, but it's not about you, like if you're a coach, coaching or whatever you're doing, whatever, whatever you're selling, do you want people to actually help themselves? They need to give you money and work with you. And we've all got into a um, a bit of a. what is it? an animal that eats itself, that sort of snake that eats itself? kind of thing where we do content to be helpful and we feel like we need to be doing useful content. but we're doing, let's remind ourselves, we're doing the content to sell our stuff and people, we can't help our clients deeply unless they buy our stuff, because then we've got their buy-in and they're invested and that contracting piece can come into play, and you can actually do your work. You can't do your work through videos and posts. MARK No, I think that's a hugely important point as well, As you say, in terms of that big hesitation, am I going to come across- as this is all about me and it's all very kind of narcissistic and kind of hey look, I'm so this, that and the other, reframing the value that you bring to the people that you hope to serve and the people that will pay for that service because of the value you're demonstrating and appreciating the gifts that you have to give to the world. That content. It's all about that value, isn't it? It's about the difference that you make, as opposed to, I think, as opposed to you just sharing your narrative. I mean again thinking about the coaching people that you support. how do you help them make that shift away from the? I'm doing this. I think I'm doing this because it's about me, and that's what makes me uncomfortable. to the this. this is part of my service. JANINE Yeah, So I do it in a roundabout way, because the heart of what I do is tends to be their, their offer, their messaging, how they're positioning, what they do. So, through doing that, they are putting the focus on who they want to be working with, and they are understanding that person deeply. They're understanding what they- not only what they need, but what they want, which is a bit of a flip because it's so easy to project. well, I know you need that, so I am going to sell that. why aren't you buying that? this is what I know you need. but if you, if the person doesn't want it, they're not going to buy it. they're not even going to resonate with it or notice it or anything. So, through going through that sort of work of sort of untangling. right. okay, what's your unique position? what makes you stand out? but specifically, what does your ideal client want? what will resonate with them? That is the key part of the journey for me when I'm working with clients for them to go- oh my gosh, they want to talk about it. then It's like, ah, now it gives them that language, sort of a dictionary of stuff that they need to talk about, which isn't about, it's not about them. MARK So is it fair to say: okay, you're providing them with this space to get so clear what it is they do, the actual nature of the offer, like you say, the language, the dictionary around how to talk about that offer and frame it in a way that you say deals with wants and kind of speaks to the ideal audience at their level, sort of meets them where they are, and that does that kind of. Do you think that fosters the bravery for someone to then say: I feel a bit more comfortable talking about this now, JANINE Yeah, and taking a tangential example, pricing. Pricing often comes up as an issue for people. yeah, um, and I have had clients where they are charging not, not nearly enough, and then we've, we've. we've done the first bit like I always do, the messaging first, the sort of the, the offer like where they sit, how they're meeting people. that bit first. And then the packaging up, which is like the signature framework and what the methodology is. And then we do the pricing. And several times I haven't even had to say: you need to put your prices up, I haven't even mentioned the words, The person, the client is like, oh, my goodness, I need to be charging much more for this. Like, look at the value, I didn't realize how much value I needed- and the people specifically I'm going to be calling to now, they will see that value and they want it more. And it's not about, it's never about convincing or persuading, it’s about the right people seeing the value. Yeah, Yeah, MARK And I guess the most important person who needs to see that value first is the client, is the person themselves, is the business owner? Yeah, they need to have that again. clarity, confidence, bravery to say: I'm doing a good thing, very cool, very cool. So, with all of that in mind, I think the pricey thing actually let's just touch on that if we may. I think it's really again; it's a testament to the work that you do that people get to that kind of realisation themselves that they're undercharging. But this value piece, this: am I selling my services by the hour? This kind of? What am I worth? Tell me a little bit more about some of the conversations you've had there. JANINE Yeah, So I've got a bugbear with that phrase, because there's a lot of people trying to empower people you know know your worth, charge your worth. But It's not about what you're worth, is it? They're not buying you. They're buying an outcome, they’re buying a transformation, and that does make it more about you, And I think it's sort of an unhelpful way to think about it. So it's. it is, you know, and it sort of leads me on to another question, train of thought: where, when it's just you- and maybe you have a small team, but you are the figurehead, you're the person, that's the face of the company. you're the person delivering the stuff. you're the one that's doing everything. It feels so personal And, on the one hand, it doesn't help thinking about charging your worth. and how much are you worth? You should be, you know. that's why I like offers, because it's like no, you were over here and you have created these offers. Would you like this offer? Is this: what you feel like you need right now? No, okay, This one, No, Oh, okay, You are not right or not ready? Goodbye. You know so, it's not. Do you like me? Yeah, Yeah, it’s it's, do you? do you feel like you need this right now? No, OK, well, do you know what I thought that you did? So, something's wrong. Maybe maybe I've got the messaging wrong, or maybe I there's something you know, so you learn rather than now. I'm not saying that I'm perfect, and if somebody says no to me and I think they're right for it, I'm like I'm still a bit like. Of course, we should, as business owners, try and separate if we can. We're the business owner, we want to help people. We can be ethical, we’re going to be ethical and we're not going to mis-sell. If people don't want what we've got, that is fine and we need to learn from that. And I had a client the other day which, again, I resonate with this wholeheartedly, but she's feeling down for one reason and another and she's like I'm trying to get a few more clients on this package And I just feel like it's all a farce, because I'm turning up trying to be chipper And I don't feel like that It feels fake. And I completely resonate with that because a couple of years ago, you know, my family was going through bereavements, and I was feeling very heavy and my child had anxiety and a cat just died. And it was, you know, a horrible time And I was doing videos, sharing some videos where I was happy, clappy and like whoa, and it felt really disingenuous. But my point to her was: And what I had to tell myself at the time was, you know, say, take a business like the National Trust, you know, and a fictional scenario that you know, the CEO died and everybody's really really sad, like they wouldn't change their adverts, would they? They wouldn't stop their advertising. I mean, maybe they would for a day. But they wouldn't stop their advertising campaign. They wouldn't change the narrative in their social media posts that they planned. They wouldn't change their tone for all of their marketing. That doesn't happen because it's unrelated to what you were selling. So, yeah, that's just another thread of that. MARK Yeah, it's a hugely valuable point. Again, that space gives you as the business owner, permission is the wrong word, but it gives you that disconnect in a good way of the whole emotional bundle that comes with being a business owner and wearing all the hats and doing all the things. And it's me that needs to be visible, but it's not actually me. It's the product that needs to be visible. And that's what we're celebrating. That's the thing that's going to make the difference. And I'm making it about the client and the difference I can make for them. ......... But it's an easy one to miss, isn't it? And I think, again, coming back to the work you do being so valuable, reminding people of that space and the value of that space is just essential. JANINE I was going to say, it's ever so hard and I need help with it. I'm not preaching from an ivory tower. I'm in it. MARK Yeah, as are we all, of course. Because again, like I say, it's a very personal emotional particularly for people who are sort of creative co-shaped people like you said you know that they're so driven by helping others you can't help but get very deeply emotionally attached to the the kind of the movement you're trying to create in someone else's life. And it's interesting, I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday, and they were talking about who coaches the coach? Because surely, after all the sessions you have, you're absorbing all of this sort of emotional weight from somebody else. How do you manage, not disconnect, because that would be the disingenuous kind of way of working, but how do you keep yourself connected? from absorbing that trauma, that emotional baggage of someone else's. And yeah, it's, yes, you might have a coach who you then kind of talk to, but who's the coach's coach's coach? How far up the line does this go? So, reminding yourself of that space, not comfort zone, again, that's the wrong thing, but that sort of, It's like a safety zone. It's like when you're coming down some sort of really steep road in the car and they've got kind of the off-ramp things just in case things get a bit sort of you know, carried away to kind of just pull over here for safety. Just having that capacity around you, I think. JANINE Yeah. I think all good coaches have coaches. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's probably, maybe it's a massive circle in the end. Yes. All coaches That's it. MARK Yes, it's all completely incestuous. I didn't say that at all. ......... Right. So, we have this wonderful world. Again, this idea, like you say, it's the ivory tower, but none of us live in this kind of perfect world. But there is this wonderful balance that someone like yourself is trying to create whereby as a business owner, you have that guidance in terms of who is it you really want to work with? What is the problem you feel you can solve better than anyone else? What is the package that best delivers that solution? And let's talk about that as opposed to you getting caught up in that visibility of, I need to be doing video, I need to be on socials, I need to be walking into a room and networking and interrupting people in conversation. We have that ideal, and yet we still have those people saying, I don't know if I'm ready. What do you think is Other than that clarity piece, which we've touched on, other than that, look, it's so obvious now what it is your package should be. You have that dictionary as you described it, which I think is a beautiful term, that kind of language around this is what it is, this is how we're going to talk about it, this is the space that we need to be talking about it. Disconnect yourself emotionally from the I'm selling me and make it about the do you want this because I think it's right for you, you don't, okay, that's fine. That kind of self-selection of your client as well, which is really important as well. But there's still those kinds of mind monkeys. There's still those kind of little whispers saying, oh, why didn't they want that? How how do we build that resilience do you think to that noise JANINE Um with regards to visibility or let's start with visibility MARK Yes JANINE Okay so on the one hand it's practice Like I was awful on video to begin with, like really, really, really nervous and waffly and bad. So when you see people being good on video, like they weren't born like that, you know, everybody knows this, but then they see people and think, oh, they're obviously a natural. So, some of it is, is practice. And when I got myself on video and I was doing, I'm still doing all my own editing. You personally, It was the path to self-love, Mark, because I had to stare at myself and edit myself and listen to my voice and watch my mannerisms. And I was making, you know, I was inadvertently making eye contact with myself because I was watching my own videos again and again and again and again. And it was like a friendship. it sounds really fantastic MARK No that's no that's that's very powerful JANINE When you see somebody and you meet somebody that's how humans have they bond don't they through eye contact and hearing each other and seeing the mannerisms which is why video is is a powerful medium um but I did that with myself so I ended up going I bloody love watching my own videos now I’m awful I can't help it I’m like I’ll just watch this video once more It's so good. It's so good. It's embarrassing, but it's true because of repetition. And, you know, if you can bear it, do your own editing to begin with. On the other hand, Play to your strengths. Like, I do think I'm quite funny. I'm going to say it. I think I'm quite funny. And okay, on some level, there's part of me that is good on video. The repetition, the practice was essential. But like, I like video. If you hate video and you feel like you'll never, ever like video, don't do it. Like, if you hate LinkedIn you know don't do it you're doubling down on what you're good at doubling down on what comes naturally if you're a fabulous writer double down on that if you're fabulous if you're awful writer and it's really really hard for you to articulate yourself then podcast instead or or guest on podcasts or something like there are so many different mediums now and platforms I mean, it really winds me up when, you know, sometimes I'm in group programs or group scenarios or with discussions and some bright spark will pipe up. Oh, well, I get all of my leads off LinkedIn. You must be on LinkedIn. Aren't you on LinkedIn? You must be because that's the answer. It's like, no, that's the answer for you, mate. Okay. Okay. You do LinkedIn. This person hates LinkedIn. And they're on Instagram and they're doing pretty well on Instagram. And if they only double down on there, you know, they're going to, they're going to So, there's, there is the repetition and just taking the plunge and keeping at it, but there's also play to strengths and double down on what you're doing already. That's working a bit. MARK That's brilliant. Thank you. I would completely agree with all of that for sure. I mean, there's a real bravery piece. I never watch my videos back. I mean, I'm very ready. JANINE Are you missing out? MARK I know, but I think I might start now because that relationship thing is so important. And coming back again to that clarity around what is it you want? Who are the people you want to serve? What is the magic that you bring? And it's like any skill, hobby, anything that you do in life that you enjoy, you will get better at it with practice. And that's a really important message just in terms of to take the time to observe whatever it is. Just, again, reread your posts and listen back to the podcast. Whatever medium works for you, that you enjoy, that's getting those results, that's connecting with your audience, spend a bit of time getting better at it and appreciating and nurturing those strengths. Why wouldn't you do that? And just those very sentences sound much less emotional than, oh, I'll put that video out, I don't know if I want to launch it back. I've got quite a few likes, a few people have kind of contacted me, they're in my DMs, that's exciting, but because you're reducing that space for your mind monkeys to start creeping back in and saying, well, you put that video out, but no one's liked it, so you're not very good, are you? Let's not do any more video. Just critiquing in a sort of professional, helpful way. participatory way is of course going to help you get better at something but yeah the self-selection thing only do only do what you actually enjoy JANINE Gotcha completely and I wonder I wonder if part of it is that when we're running our own business it is it does feel like I need to do everything and then if you're doing 12 things that are new to you Like it's going to feel really, really uncomfortable and overwhelming and it's going to be impossible. So, I think maybe we're I mean, I'm definitely very, very impatient. We want results yesterday and we feel pressure. I'm not doing enough. That person's got a podcast, got a video show, YouTube speaking on stage. He's got a book. You know, I haven't got half of those things. I should do all of them immediately. But then, you know. if you just do one and just practice at it and you know maybe start off as an experiment do I enjoy this um can I learn to enjoy it I’m going to do one thing and I’m going to do it regularly I’m going to try and fine tune it and I’m going to my learning I’m going to I’m going to my training budget I’m going to put towards that for 3 months but that's a more sensible approach isn't it I’m not saying I do this but it's sensible MARK Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, we all get caught up in that. Oh, there's that event. Someone's just released tickets for that thing next week and I have to go and be in that room. And it's like, well, do you? Oh, I love an event. I love an event. Yeah, I know. It's terrible. I've spent a fortune on events already this year. But sorry, going off on one tangent. But yeah, but as you say, it's that kind of looking sideways of someone else's version of success drawing you towards or drawing you away from success. The thing that makes you who you are yeah JANINE And that person's done it over years they've done they've started on that and they've started that and then they've started that and then they've got the revenue to help have a team to help them do that and then they've done that and where it's the old comparing your page one to their page or whatever exactly that yeah and you just picking up on your self-editing, self-critiquing, watching back all your video. I didn't know you did that. MARK It's all those things you don't know. Someone else has achieved this thing. JANINE Yeah. I mean, I don't to be honest, it's never been I never do it from a, let's see how I can approve this. Okay. Originally it was to edit it for the editing and then it became narcissism. ......... I just enjoy it. I just, I enjoy watching my stuff back and maybe I'll think, oh, I could have done that differently, but usually it's just, I am fabulous on video. I'm going to just watch this again. which disclosure there MARK Yeah no I like it no absolutely and you are it's it's very true which you know brings us I guess we kind of need to start wrapping things up but my next and possibly final question is where will we be seeing Janine next if if not on video JANINE Well, I do have my new video show, which is the show off. ......... I thought it was a bit too clever, really, because I should just call it the show off. But I thought, ha-ha, it's the show… off. Because I was told as a child not to show off. And now I'm like, do you know what? I need to show off a bit. And I like it. So, I'm going to call my show the show off. So, I'm talking to people about whether they were told not to show off and how they've navigated that. And a few people, well, one in particular was told she wasn't told not to show off because she was very quiet and introverted. She was told to put herself out more. And it's like, oh, okay. Can't win. But that's what we're talking about on the show. So that's my main chatty place that I'll be hanging out in the foreseeable future. I don't have any speaking gigs lined up. So, people, if you want a speaker. Talking about offers pricing, visibility, all that jazz. Here I am. Yeah. But yeah, you'll see me in a conference near you probably as well. Hobnobbing. MARK Outstanding. And you're very easy to find because it's janinecoombs.co.uk. Yes. we'll see Janine Coombes as well. JANINE forward slash show off. That's the show off. I was going to say, the show's on there. The book's on there as well. MARK Can we get the book from there? We can find out where to get it. JANINE Yeah, you could go to, or you could go to easy-yes.com. for the book yeah MARK Very good very good it's a it is a fantastic read it really is genuinely um and as I say that just flicking back through it again this morning you're seeing all the highlighters and the things that I’ve actually kind of implemented since reading it and again coming back to that kind of clarity piece and that slight distancing of this isn't about me this is about the service and the difference that can make was very beneficial so I’m going to say thank you very much Janine for all of that and appreciate your time this morning. JANINE Oh, my absolute pleasure. MARK Yes, because the way we've got this set up, I've no idea if anyone's left comments and things like that. But if they have, I'll go back in there and work my way through them once we click end stream. Me too. I can see a little blue dash. Let's have a look. Oh, yeah, there's a few people speaking and commenting. So that's good. We weren't alone, which is always nice. Yeah. you take care thank you thank you to everybody who tuned in and the next mind monkeys is exactly a month today so 13th of March with the career coaching consultant and wonderful human Daniel Brunetto so check him out he is way cool so yeah that's gonna be a good one too but thank you Janine as always nice to see you soon and thank you everybody and enjoy the rest of your weekend. Bye-bye.