MARK Good morning everybody, thank you for joining us on MindMonkey's Welcome Bananas Optional, a regular LinkedIn Live where we name, explain and reframe the most common hesitations that get in the way of the successes that we deserve. I'm Mark, I am your guide as we embark on raw, honest, irreverent and important conversations designed to normalise the fears that we each face at work and at play in order to help you, our amazing listener, reframe the perspectives around the stories that you've created for yourself that have been feeding those monkeys. And today I am joined by the amazing Liz Moore. Liz has worked in health and social care for over 40 years. She doesn't look old enough at all, so how is this possible Liz? We'll come into that. Trained as a nurse, later as a social worker, holding frontline management roles in mental health, carer support and dementia services. Seven years ago, qualified as a mental health first aid instructor, sharing knowledge drawn from both professional and lived experience of mental ill health. In 2022, Liz founded Empower Mental Health Training. Committed to continuous learning, she delivers specialist training for managers, menopause awareness and financial well-being. Liz, welcome to Mind Monkeys, thank you so much for joining us. LIZ Thank you Mark, good to see you, good to catch up. MARK Yes, and you've just been on a wonderful break you were saying up in Scotland, so you shouldn't feel very removed from any Mind Monkeys that may have been getting in the way so far this year. Tell me, Liz, I mean I genuinely can't believe 40 years, that's an incredible story. You must have so much lived experience, so much wealth experience, which I'm hoping we can invite you to share with us in terms of the Mind Monkeys that you've seen in your career that feel the most sort of common, the ones that sort of appear in the most different circumstances. So just to throw that question to you, for all the people you've supported in those different roles, are there any anxieties, hesitations, sort of core worries that you've seen again and again and again? LIZ Yeah, I think the first one that springs to mind, Mark, is that I'm not good enough, you know, am I good enough to be doing this? And which then, you know, leaks into, you know, hesitations about applying for jobs and, you know, just going for things really and, you know, I've done lots, I have had lots of different jobs but each time it's, it's that, each time I've managed to get the job, I've then thought, how have I managed this? Rather than, great, you've done really, really well, it's that sort of, you know, people may say it's a negative mindset and in lots of ways I'd agree, it's, but it's not because I want to be negative, I try, it's like a constant battle to not be negative or not to think the worst. I don't know if anybody else can relate to that but it's, it's a, you know, it's a childhood thing. It's, I can trace it back, I've done quite a lot of work, you know, I've had, I have had therapy and I've done quite a lot of work on this and a lot of it traces back to this idea, you know, from a very small child of, you know, staying, you know, you're in this place and this is where you're, you're right to be and don't try and step out of that and you're, you know, just know, know your limits rather than thinking, well what, where, how can you push further and further and get to where you want to be? So it's, you know, I'm 62 and it's still a battle, it's an ongoing battle and something that, that I live with so, you know, when I, I haven't read your book yet, I'm going to read your book, I really want to read, but I've read books that have talked about these ideas before and I can really see it, but changing it is another thing, isn't it? You know, you might, even when you recognise in yourself that, you know, that you have these battles, it's actually making those changes that is, is, is a challenge. So yeah, am I good enough? Long answer. MARK Good answer, no, thank you for sharing, thank you, thank you for sharing sort of your own personal take on that. There's, there's lots of things I'd like to sort of come back to within what you've just shared. Firstly, it's very interesting, but again, you, you are a mental health trainer, you've many, many years’ experience supporting others and yet, and I would do the same, you know, we, as people in that space, we still put our hands up and say, we have those fears, you know, we have those moments where we're not good enough. I was at a coach's conference at the start of the year, Liz50 amazing professional coaches who, whose responsibility or whose job is to help other people flip that, I'm not good enough switch. And yet they all have that kind of imposter syndrome of looking across the room thinking, I wish I had a business like theirs, I wish I could be as confident as them. It's fascinating. The, if I may just pick up on the childhood thing, which I'm really interested in. Again, from the work that you've done, and obviously picking on other stories without sharing too much detail, of course. How, how do you help people approach that kind of, those historic attachments, those sort of decisions that people have made based on things that happened in their childhood that they still carry forward today? LIZ I mean, I think a lot of that is about, a lot of that is a sort of therapist stroke counsellor sort of role. In the work that I've done, I think it's been, I mean, back in the days, this is going to, anyone who's a social worker now will think really, you used to do that? You know, I work with people with very long term mental health conditions, some of whom had been in hospital for long periods of time. And it was then called rehabilitation, you know, and I worked with people for a long period, long, you know, ongoing. And we would do things like go out and do activities together, and look at skills that that person had, and really try and look at what skills they've got, and then build on those skills. And really be looking at then what are your goals next? What can we do to get you to where you want to be? So, where, what are the objectives? Where does that person want to be? And they have to be realistic, but then working towards those. And, you know, having a long term relationship with that person, working with them for a long period of time, and helping them, you know, literally being there with them to start with, and then maybe setting goals for that person to do things on their own. And hearing back about how that went, how that experience went. So, let's say we're talking about something like shopping, because literally, if somebody's got something like severe depression, anxiety, or maybe psychosis, they've been through a psychotic episode, and they're in the recovery phase, they may have lost a lot of skills. So, you know, working alongside that person, setting a goal, you know, with them, working out what the goals are, maybe being with them at the start, but then, you know, with the aim of not being there all the time, ongoing. So, and then giving feedback, you know, it's that feedback that's important about and looking at what might be a maybe a different way to undertake a task that's very stressful. So, that's the sort of work that I've done in the past. And, you know, I find it really, really rewarding. And I think, for me, quite often, I can relate to why a person might feel as they did, you know, and find some of the most simple tasks really quite challenging. I mean, I've had quite severe depression in the past, and getting out of bed, and doing day to day things can be just so challenging. So, you know, and I think unless you've been through that experience, it can seem, you know, almost ridiculous that a person can't do things that they've been doing for years, that it's then having to sort of not relearn exactly, but sort of build the confidence again to do those tasks. So, I think it's, it is that sort of lived experience, having been through that myself, having empathy, I suppose, I'm quite a sensitive person, I do pick up on things very easily, which can be both a, you know, in work, in a role where you're working with people can be really, really valuable. But it can also be quite a challenge as well, because, you know, you have to be able to separate yourself sometimes and stand back a little bit. And when you can really empathise with somebody, or you pick up on their uncomfortableness, it can be, you know, hard sometimes to sort of, you know, not get embroiled in that, not sort of take on too much. So, again, very long answer to your question. Yeah, those are some of the things that, you know, come to my mind, really, when, when I'm thinking about how to support somebody. MARK Thank you. And, and again, thank you for sort of, you know, touching on your own story there. If I might just, just gently sort of lean into that or lean into your experience in terms of some of the work you do now, perhaps with, let's think about sort of management or people in leadership positions. Yeah. Companies who have a responsibility, a duty of care to their team. They themselves may have, you know, some slight challenges, hesitations and, you know, some mental ill health themselves. What, what tips in terms of resilience or balance would you give somebody in that position as they take on that duty of care, but also have that duty of care to themselves? LIZ Yeah, it's a really good question. What I would say is, I think it's knowing where, I mean, obviously there's legislation, there are things that people have to have in place and things that, you know, going beyond that, that are going to be valuable to your business if you can get those preventative things in place, rather than waiting for something awful to happen. So, you know, obviously there are things that have to be done. I think as a leader, there's two things. You, if you're not feeling, maybe you're having a challenging time yourself, then I think sometimes it's good to recognise that and know when to delegate a task. So, if this is really outside your comfort zone, then, you know, find somebody else to do that job, somebody who will feel comfortable and is able to do that job well, rather than just thinking, I'm not, it's not going to be tackled. It's got to be, it's got to be looked at. It's just, you know, these are your essential things I'm talking about. Things like putting, you know, wellbeing strategies into place, having, you know, policies and procedures so that when somebody's mental health is not good, that the workplace can manage that situation and support that person. So, yeah, delegate if necessary. I'm a very strong believer that managers and leaders need to lead by example. So, actually, in a way, that gives, you know, actually practise what you preach. If you believe that, you know, that workplaces need to have wellbeing policies and procedures, you know, make sure that you're doing the things that you're asking your people to do. So, you know, this, you know, so, for example, let's think about one simple thing, breaks, people having breaks. If you're seen to be, as a senior manager, never having a break, never taking your leave, always at your desk or, you know, taking calls early in the morning and then late into the evening, then you're setting an example that says that this is acceptable when actually, and then saying to other people, don't do it. It confuses the picture, I think. So, practising what you preach, being seen to be doing the things that are helpful for anybody to help look after their wellbeing. And if you feel comfortable, and only if, maybe actually talking a bit about that. So, actually modelling it and making it something that you lead from the front with. So, you know, if you're having team meetings, it's finding a way of bringing up health and wellbeing and maybe sharing a bit about yourself, or as much about yourself as you feel comfortable with. So, I think it's those things, it's, you know, modelling and then actually really looking after yourself or, and doing things that are comfortable for you. So, I mean, I'm talking a bit about myself today, maybe more than I would do normally, because I'm now feeling in a position where I feel a bit more comfortable about that. And that's really come because of changing things in my lifestyle and in my family situation where I feel like I want to say a bit more. I think it's important to, and I want to now talk, you know, talk about my childhood a little bit. I didn't feel comfortable when my parents were alive. I always had this sort of sense that they might feel very upset or disappointed or whatever. But now I can say what I like really, you know, if it's going to be of value to me, and I think it is, and if it's going to help with my work, then I can do that. So, you know, that's just another example, really. MARK Thank you. And that is a, but again, I appreciate you sharing this. And it's a very brave and quite a sort of a powerful step for each of us to, to be able to move to a place where we feel slightly more comfortable and slightly more willing to, to open up and be vulnerable. And again, share the sort of challenges we've had in order to hopefully help others, you know, give them the benefit of our experience. So they might not avoid our mistakes, because they're not mistakes, because it's all part of our journey. But you know, have some better tools in their toolkit to support their resilience. Yeah. I'm keen, I'm mindful that a lot of the people who listen to Mind Monkeys are perhaps small organisations, possibly solo business owners, who are perhaps just starting to think about sort of growing their team, or, you know, it's a sort of a business of two, maybe three people where just the scale and logistics make it even more difficult to manage that very important wellbeing workplace, mental health first aid, and so on. What, what would you suggest is sort of the first thing that a leader in that position should be looking towards in terms of external support, guidance, or anything they could do easily themselves? Where should they begin? LIZ Well, yeah, I mean, I'm in that position myself. And you know, because you're trying to do everything. First thing I'd say is if you're in a small business, and you're the, you know, you're the business owner, leader, whatever term you want to use, and you've maybe got two or three other people, you know, if you, if you don't look after yourself, the business is going to crumble, isn't it? It's going to not work, because you're an essential part of, well, you're an essential part anyway. But you know, if you're not looking after yourself, you cannot keep the business going. And you can't actually do the things you need to do to help the other people in the business with their roles, and do the bits that link with with those other people. So you, in a way, you need to be number one in terms of your well-being. And again, just coming back to myself, the last couple of years, because I've had so many, and we've talked about this, it's almost like another, what, another thing on that list of life, life issues, things that happen to all of us, you know, bereavements, illness, it's all been thrown at me, and I had to take time out. And I knew that this was going to have an impact on the business, because I wasn't sitting at my desk and doing the things I need to do every day, or every week, or whatever. I knew that was going to happen. But I also knew that if I just tried to carry on as normal, that wasn't going to work either. And I think that is the dilemma sometimes with having a very small business is that, you know, if one person is not well, or, you know, something happens, then it's very easy for things to start to, you know, really go under. So, but as a business owner, you know, you've got to be able to be well enough and able enough to keep things ticking over. So, you know, I think there's a couple of things you can do. I mean, if you can step away for a while, and maybe delegate other, delegate the most important task to somebody else, great. That's, that's, that's always a good thing. I know that's not always going to be possible, particularly if you're the, you're the breadwinner. So, you know, it's then maybe having to do a lot of prioritising what has to be done, what can be put on hold for a while. And that might mean going back to customers and saying, you know, I can't do this at the moment. You know, can we do this, or can we do this in a different way, or whatever that means. But I think it's about being honest, really, rather than letting people down at the last minute. So, you know, I think that's one of the things that is worth thinking about. What I should have started with is prevention is better than cure. So, you know, doing the things that we all probably know we need to do to in the first place, not let, you know, things get to a point where, you know, they're going to have a massive impact. So, I mean, as I say, things happen, bereavements, illnesses, things happen that we have no control over. And that's, you know, these are emergency things that you've got to just, you know, get on with. And sometimes you have to put family and yourself first. But if it's not about that, it's, you know, I would say that prevent, prevention, so thinking about what you can do on a daily basis to look after your own wellbeing. And, you know, these are the basics. But I know that when I first started my own business, I was working silly hours. I was just working all the time. I was just, you know, head down, get on with it. And I know that that leads to burnout. So, if I was to do it again, I wouldn't do it like that, because I just think it's, although, you know, we think we're invincible, we're not. So, it's better to grow your business slowly, incrementally, and look after yourself, rather than try and do it quickly and end up burnt out and not able to do anything. It's things like taking time off, you know, I didn't take holiday for a couple of years because I was so focused on work. But these things are important. These things are essential. Now that I'm a bit more established, I think things like having, you know, work buddies, you're not working with them, but people in other businesses that you can keep in contact with, check in with each other, maybe do, you know, a couple of months, check in with each other, talk about what's going on in your business, talk about life, the universe, because you know, your business world and what's going on in your personal life are so intertwined that actually trying to have this false dichotomy between what's going on in one and the other, I think, you know, just doesn't work really. So, someone who you trust, who you can talk to about what's going on, share ideas, laugh together, maybe cry together. MARK Yeah. LIZ Just have somebody who, you know, who understands the pains, the pleasures, the stresses, the wins that you get as a small business owner. I think that's so important. And I really value the people that I have those sorts of relationships with, including yourself, Mark. You know, we've talked, we've got together, we've chatted, mostly on Zoom, but about things that are going on. And, and it's just, you know, you know, you're not alone. And when it comes to fear, you're able to say, do you know what I feel really silly about dot, dot, dot. And you don't feel judged. It doesn't go any further. You know that you're not, you're not alone. So that's a couple, that's just a couple of things off the top of my head that I think that are important, really, to try and maintain good mental health initially, but also, you know, in more emergency situations where you don't have a lot of time to plan. You know, that's much more complicated, but I do think looking after yourself first sounds, you know, probably sounds ridiculous, but, you know, if you're not there doing the job, things are probably not going to stay together for very long. Your business is not going to just tick over unless you've put things in place. So, yeah, that's another very long answer. MARK But again, another good one. And interesting, I mean, where my mind was kind of going, listening to you, particularly at the beginning, you were talking about, this is something that I've mulled over myself a lot in terms of that, is it better when you're in that moment of sort of overwhelm, you know, the really brave thing to do is to say, right, I need to step away, I'm going to take however long it takes, and then I'll come back because it is better for me, as you were saying, to reset, you know, let the people who need to know, know, give myself that space so that when I come back, I am in a much stronger place to continue, because otherwise, the longer it goes on, essentially, the longer term the damage becomes. We've actually had a question in the chat, which is lovely from Beth. And this was something that popped into my head, because as a solopreneur, as a business owner, everything you feel, you feel, everything is on your shoulders. It's not actually all on your shoulders, but you certainly have that responsibility. I was speaking to someone the other week who feels, you know, a sense of duty to their team, above and beyond the business. Beth's asking, how do you cope with the feeling of guilt, if you take time for yourself? Because I think, I think that guilt point, that question is really valid. LIZ Yeah, it's, yes, it's, you know, I think a lot of us are, you know, we're programmed to believe we should work, you know, it's drummed into us, it's important. And indeed, you know, practically, we need to bring money in, we, you know, need to keep food on the table, all those things. So guilt, you know, is, I think, quite a common sort of feeling in, in that sort of situation that I, I should be, you know, that sort of phrase, can be going around in your head. But I think that, and I'm not saying it's not a struggle, because these are the sort of things that are in your head, and you can't, it's not easy to get rid of them. But at the end of the day, I think, what I'm, what I'm understanding is that we're not robots. And even the most powerful, brilliant people have challenging times. And we have to find ways, whatever that and whatever works for you, to sometimes just acknowledge we can't do what we need to do. And we need to, and we have to, you know, step away sometimes, or do things differently, as we've already talked about. So I think it's this sense of, yes, it might, it niggles, and you feel guilty, and you've, you know, and maybe even people will say, well, you know, you're doing whatever, you know, you're taking time out, or, well, you know, that's, that's not a good idea. But you have to understand yourself, I think, and understand where you are. And you don't do these things lightly, you're doing them, because it's, things have reached a point where, you know, you can't carry on as you are. And if you can justify that to yourself, I think you just have to keep saying, I'm doing this because, write it down, whatever it takes you to sort of get that message through, and to, you know, to try and get those, you know, niggles that go on in your mind, not to feel guilty. But it's a challenging one, isn't it? We, you know, it's, when you're an adult, and you've got children, you've got responsibilities, you've got a mortgage, all these things. But I think, for me, having been ill, through workplace stress, or work being a massive part of that, once you see what can happen, and the damage that can do, it does change your perspective. And you might feel as guilty as hell, but at the end of the day, you've got to look after yourself. You know, it's just essential. And any of you who are listening or, you know, now, or listen back on to this, you'll understand what I'm talking about, that when you see yourself or somebody else, paralysed, and I'm really meaning paralysed, not able to do, you know, things that we just take for granted, then you realise that we are not robots, we are people, we're humans, we're fallible. And we do, you know, we have to do certain things to keep well and to keep going and keep ticking over. So, yeah, guilt, I'm not knocking it in any way there. I'm not saying, you know, that's a silly thing. It's built into us, isn't it, to feel guilty about certain things? MARK I think, yeah, yeah. Thank you. I mean, that was a great answer. Again, so much to kind of take from that. The guilt thing, I think, it's really interesting, because guilt, in many ways, is sort of proof of concept that you care. You care about what you do. In that sense, guilt is not a bad thing. It's the challenge, of course, is to zoom out in that moment, particularly in that moment of sort of real overwhelm of stress and busyness and noise, which is when you need to step back, it's very difficult to zoom out with a lens and almost kind of say to yourself, if I have a week now, week's holiday with a family, just time to reset, time to top up my tank, recharge my battery, yes, that is five working days, seven days away from my business. But if I don't do this, and I don't take advantage of the benefits of that recovery time, then potentially we're looking at a much longer period of time. Much longer. Yeah. And if you want to sort of apply a very sort of clinical business kind of spreadsheet approach to it in terms of the, you know, if I lose seven days of business, that's one thing. But if I'm, to use your word, paralysed for months, there's a more logical reason to assuage the guilt and say, this is too important. Yeah. I am too important. I think that moment of I am important, going back to another thing you were saying, Liz, about sort of having that circle of people you can talk to. LIZ Yeah. MARK Particularly, you know, if you're running your own business, and maybe you don't have a team yet, so you are on your own, but you're not on your own. Because there are people from different sectors, probably different industries, but still enduring, enjoying, you know, experiencing those same hesitations, fears, anxieties, that same noise. And I know from experience, just having a conversation with someone who says, yet, I'm feeling like that, too, immediately lightens the load, doesn't it? It makes you feel like you're not a failure. It's not all on me. I should be doing so much better. Why have I got this wrong? Okay. This is, this is, normal is the wrong word, but this is okay. It's okay to not be okay, I suppose is the kind of, you know. LIZ Yes, yes. MARK And perhaps we can not be okay together. LIZ Yes, definitely. Yes. MARK And to kind of round things off, if I may, Liz, I mean, I say this every, every episode. But again, I think this one rings really true. We could talk for so much longer, because, again, we've both got plenty of kind of experience in terms of, as you were saying, the damage that can be done by not listening to your body, not listening to your brain, not listening to others, perhaps who are sensible enough to say, hold on a minute, are you okay? But I guess my last question to you would be for anyone in that situation who's perhaps starting to feel that guilt, perhaps starting to feel a little bit heavy, everything's feeling a little bit too much. And maybe they don't have somebody to turn to. What's the one simple piece of advice that you would give them? LIZ I would say, get some help from somewhere. It's never, you know, it's very easy to think that we always can solve our own problems ourselves. There's so much self-help around that, you know, makes it sound easy. You can, you know, if you do this thing, it'll all be, everything will be sorted out, everything will be fine. And sometimes if you're really in that situation where you've probably tried all the techniques you can think of, I mean, when you were talking just now, I was thinking about writing everything down, you know, write that list of things, you know, things that are bothering you, or maybe a list of tasks, but then a second list, that list of things that are bothering you, write those down. And if you've written those things down, and you've not been able to, from that, work out what to do next, what is number one thing I need to do? I think sometimes it's about, you know, recognising that, not thinking I failed and I need help, but actually thinking, I'm doing something positive now. And get the help you think you need. And that might be about paying for it, sadly. And again, this again, you know, is another massive issue. I know, when money can be tight, and you're thinking, well, you know, really, I need to spend the money on dot, dot, dot, there's always Liz00 other things. But I think we've established that, you know, we are, we are really, really important. So if you need to sometimes, you know, to pay some money to get some sort of support, be that through a coach, be that through some sort of counselling or therapy, or whatever it is that is going to help you to do what you need to do to get back on track or to move forward, if you know, you're feeling stuck, I would highly recommend that. I really do think that sometimes we, we can get stuck in a rut, where we go round and round and round and don't make any progress, because you sometimes, we've, we've, you know, it's just too much going on, there's too much muddle, there's too much confusion. And we need an external person who is neutral to help us look at things in a different way. So, you know, whatever, whatever it is, it could be, you know, going to talk to your GP, it could be and then, you know, whatever it, whatever that thing is, and not feeling any sort of shame about it either. You know, it's, I think it's got better. I think people are understanding now that a lot more that, you know, there is no shame in seeking help, but there's still a little bit of resistance sometimes, particularly if we have to pay. Because yeah, I mean, I, in an ideal world that everything, you know, would be out there for free, but that's, we're not in an ideal world. So, you know, if it's going to cost a bit of money, and it moves things on and helps you, then I would say, you know, try and find a way to do that. Because I know, I mean, I've had therapy back in the, you know, I had therapy on the NHS. Well, you know, how long would you wait for that? I think I did wait. But you'd be waiting so long. And it breaks my heart, really, to, you know, to think how difficult it is now, and how many people are waiting for things. But, you know, if you can, you know, get that help by paying, then I think that would be my number one tip, really. MARK Thank you. Just to kind of explore a couple of words that you used in there. Shame, I think, being an important word to kind of highlight in the sense of, yeah, you're right, it's not shameful. There's no need to feel guilty. The shame comes from touching what you were saying earlier, the stories we've told ourselves since childhood, all those things that happened a long time ago, that have given us the beliefs, the decisions, the meanings we've attached to who we are now. So when we think, going back to the very first when we think I'm not good enough, that's based on a story we've been telling ourselves for a long time. And it is that story that has created the shame. But it's, that's not necessarily who we are. And having those conversations with people, professionals, as well as just lightening the load by turning sideways and talking to a friend, alleviates that shame, I think, because, as you rightly say, people are talking more, which is great. And the more we talk, the more we reduce the guilt and the shame. And we make it more acceptable to not be okay today. And I'd like to do something about it. And I'm just raising my hand sort of thing. LIZ Yes, yes. Absolutely. MARK Les, again, it's always a pleasure to speak to you. LIZ You too, Mark. MARK So much. And I love, I just love the energy you bring to the room, because you are just so calming and so grounded. And I know that anyone, anyone who would speak to you would get that kind of lovely sense of calm and that pause, which so many of us need. So for anyone who would like to speak to you, Les, where could they find you? What's the best way to kind of seek you out and begin a conversation? LIZ So I have a website, which is www.empowermht, as it says underneath my name there, .co.uk. That's the easiest way to get hold of me. If you do a contact form, or you'll see other contact details on the website. So yeah. MARK Fantastic. Lovely. And you're very active from a networking point of view. I know you sort of appear in a number of rooms around Oxfordshire as well. So it's always a delight to bump into you. Thank you so much, Les. Thank you to everyone who was tuning in today as well. Again, you'll be able to watch this back with all the previous episodes in YouTube, links to follow. And the next episode, because we're ramping up the frequency, so it's only a two week wait, the next episode is on Friday, the 5th of June. And that is with resilience guide, Julie Mumford. So please look out for that. Les, thank you once again. Thank you, Mark. LIZ Really good to talk to you. MARK And take care. And thank you, everyone. Have a wonderful bank holiday weekend.