MARK Thank you for joining us on Mind Monkey's Welcome Bananas Optional, our regular opportunity to pause, rename, explain and reframe the most common hesitations that get in the way of the successes that we deserve. I'm Mark Franklin, I am your guide as we embark on raw, honest, irreverent and important conversations designed to acknowledge and normalise those fears, the fears that we each face at work and at play in order to help you, our amazing listener, reframe those perspectives around the stories that perhaps you've created for yourselves, you know those stories that or those feelings that are feeding those monkeys. I'm going to introduce today's amazing guest, I shall bring her on screen shortly, but just to give you her bio, her backstory, Hannah Knowles is passionate about empowering individuals and teams to realise their full potential. With years of experience designing and delivering wellbeing programmes for schools, businesses and organisations, Hannah now leads workshops and keynotes for a diverse range of art of brilliance clients, including again schools, businesses, councils, the NHS, sports teams and so many more. Hannah's background is in psychology, she has a passion for positive psychology, in fact she has been described as the queen of positivity. She uses storytelling and strategies to inspire and equip her audiences with the tools to navigate change, uncertainty and adversity. I could go on, there is just so many amazing things in Hannah's CV to share, but let's not do that, let's bring Hannah on screen now. Hannah how are you doing? HANNAH I'm good thanks Mark, how are you doing? MARK I'm really well, thank you so much again for joining me today, this is a real treat for me and for everyone tuning in I'm sure. The theme of the show is again embracing fears; it's talking about the things that get in the way. I've just mentioned that you are a keynote speaker, you are an incredible keynote speaker, let's not undersell this, I heard you speak back in February and so many things I love about your style, you're so natural, so authentic, you're a brilliant storyteller, you just make it look so easy and yet you've said a few times that actually being at the front of the room it's not necessarily your happy place, it's not somewhere where you've always been comfortable. Tell me more about that, tell me how you've embraced those fears and become as good as you are at what you do. HANNAH Oh gosh okay, well firstly thank you for you know inviting me on to be here and talk to you today, I'm delighted to be joining you. Yeah it is funny like when you hear somebody read out the bio and description of me and I'm like is that me? Like is really? Okay and that's you know that's you know they're my monkeys isn't it, it's the fear that comes in all the time and we're doubting ourselves but yes my, I was once introduced and I've kind of been using it since as a reluctant keynote speaker and it is true to a certain extent, so in terms of the backstory if you want it Mark I'm happy to go there but I've never been sort of one for all eyes on me, I've never been, I wasn't really the confident person in my friendship group, I actively avoided being the centre of attention and I'm sure people listening, watching can resonate with that but in terms of I think where my public speaking journey began, weirdly it was around about the age 16 when I was in my English class at school and I remember walking into that class and that particular Tuesday morning, it's so locked in my head and seeing that the tables and chairs had all been sort of rearranged by the teacher and I'm thinking oh no what's going on here because she'd got rid of all the tables, she'd pushed them back and she created like a horseshoe with the chairs and as somebody that sort of doesn't like to be on show I'm like well there's nothing to hide behind, what's going on here? So I'm sort of panicking and my teacher casually comes up to me as I'm sitting down and put my bag under my chair, she goes Hannah just wanted to let you know we're reading Romeo and Juliet today, we've been working through it for our GCSEs and then she goes I just wanted to let you know you're going to be Juliet. Now whether people know the play or not, Juliet's kind of a big deal, she's got a big part, so hearing that I'm like oh my gosh I've got to suddenly not just speak in front of a group of other 16 year olds, I've got to read Shakespeare in front of a group of 16 year olds and I'm gonna have to say quite a lot in 60 minutes. So what happens is what can you describe is like a physical reaction, I feel so sick, I know it sounds dramatic but it was the truth, I had to leave the room because I thought I was going to be sick and I think what happened next I've kind of blocked out because I don't think I went back in to be quite honest with you and speaking of fear I don't think I could get back in the room. Now fast forward a few years I'm at university studying psychology, you know it's no surprise that I didn't study English is it after that story, that wasn't for me, so I went down the psychology route and I remember being in my second year and we were going through the booklet as to sort of what we wanted our final year modules to be towards our dissertation and I remember sort of reading through the descriptions and I saw like forensic psychologists and thought oh that sounds exciting, that's a bit interesting, you know a bit of CSI, like that programme, you know maybe I could go down that that route. So I got myself all excited thinking that was the direction I was going to go in and as I got to the bottom of the page at the bottom it said sort of the assessment and the assessment was a five minute presentation in front of a group of people and in that instance I was like no way that's not for me, forget that dream, I'm not I'm not doing it, I don't, five minute present, not for me. So then I turn the page and I look at the next one, I'm like oh educational psychologists, that sounds all right, that'd be quite good, get myself excited, convinced that's my journey I'm going on, sure enough assessment, five minute presentation, I'm like wow I'm not doing that either. So what quickly happened was I'm scanning through this booklet no longer looking at the title or the description, I'm going straight down to the assessment and if it said anything to do with a presentation I dismissed it, I wasn't even interested, but if it said an essay or an exam I thought that's the one for me, that's what I'm going to go for. So what happened was I spent the final year at university, which meant to be like some of the best years of your life, really quite miserable because I was doing sort of subjects and courses that I wasn't all that interested in, I wasn't that invested in, but I'd convinced myself I was safe, I'd convinced myself it was okay because I didn't have to speak at the end, I just had to sit an exam and do an essay and I was okay. So, you know now the fact that I get introduced as a public speaker, as a keynote speaker is really quite ridiculous when you hear that because I have to remind myself that I do willingly put myself in this position, I do actually love my job so much, but it's like when you think of where that all started never would I have thought this would be where I'd sort of currently be at all. MARK And that sort of jump, like you say, because I mean the passion comes through and again I think as you say before, it's because you are so enamoured of the stories you share, the positive psychology, it means so much to you, that's what gets you up on stage, is that fair? HANNAH It really is, it really is, I mean don't get me wrong it wasn't like I suddenly woke up one morning and the stars aligned and I was suddenly like oh my gosh I can do this, you know, I'm suddenly this super confident person because I'm not, I'm still not, I'm still terrified every time I go on stage, I really am. But what I did was to get there was over a course of many years, take those small little steps that we often talk about and to sort of get out of my comfort zone sort of gradually but always making a little bit of progress and doing the little steps to try and build up a bit of a mental bank account as okay you can do this, you've spoken in front of this group of people, okay what if you add a few more people, can you do it like that? But the missing bit really Mark, and you've hit the nail on the head, was when you talk about something you're passionate about. So I still would be terrified and reluctant to speak if I had to talk about an excel spreadsheet, if I had to talk about facts and figures, I'm not your girl, like you don't want me up there because the nerves will really show, but when I'm talking about something that I'm passionate about and believe in, which is this subject of positive psychology and helping people unlock and unleash their potential, then I'm like yes I'm up for that, I want to talk to you, yeah but hundreds of people, no problem, let's go for it, pack them in, terrified but I can hide the fear, I can manage the fear and I'm more excited to be honest, I'm like let me go, unleash me, let me go. MARK Right, we're going to keep you in your happy place then, so positive psychology, why does it mean this much to you? What is it about the concept of delivery, the things you're talking about, why does that really light you up? HANNAH I think what I love about it is just how practical it is, and I think that's what I try to do as a speaker, is that you know you can see behind me, I read lots of books, I'm a big bookworm, I love reading, but what I really try to do is take those messages and turn them into really practical actions, and what I've found sort of over the last sort of five or six years where I've really immersed myself in all of this research and the books and everything, is about okay how can I apply this to my own life? So going back to that you know me from being a very you know anti-public speaker to suddenly being more of a willing one, was sort of try and testing some of these methods and realise oh okay this works for me, so maybe it could work for other people, so some of the messages that I share with others when I'm speaking is I let them know sort of okay what's worked for me, and what hasn't, and that I mess up regularly, and I think sometimes you need to hear more of that, so even though I sort of I know a lot more than I did, I don't know everything, and you know nobody does, but I'm learning and I'm having a go, and I'm doing the best I can. MARK I love that, I love that, and you're right in terms of that you're never going to know everything, and demonstrating, again going back to what I was saying at the start about what a fantastic and authentic speaker you are, that kind of very natural, honest, here I am, this is what I believe, I've seen this work, this has worked for me, and the language you use as well, it's, I think this is true for the whole Art of Brilliance team to be fair, but seeing you back in February, there's just some lovely little twists, little takes, things that you say that really stick in people's minds, there was an example that, I had a whole pad of notes from your talk in February, I've got to say yeah, I really am bigging you up, but there was this one line that I put this little love heart next to, which was be the most interested person in the room, which is such a cool little flick, but tell me more about that one. HANNAH Yeah, so that was sort of, that saying sort of came to me, again a book behind me I was reading, was the story of the two Victorian prime ministers, so Benjamin Disraeli and William Gladstone, and both of these men famously hated each other, they had very different views when it came to their leadership style and their politics, but legend has it, according to the book I read, who am I to question, the legend has it that these two men went on a date with the exact same woman in the exact same week, and at the end of the week, this lady was asked, you know, what was it like going on a date with these two men, and it was, her response came about from their two very different approaches both of these men took in terms of like wooing this lady, I think they called it wooing back then, we'll go with it, so yeah, so William Gladstone, he took a sort of like a look at me kind of a thing, he made the conversation all about him, so every question was sort of redirected back to him, he wanted to impress her with his wit, his worldliness, his eloquence, all his achievements and everything, whereas Disraeli took a different approach, Disraeli sort of, he leaned in, he asked her questions, obviously I wasn't there Mark, but you know, let's just go with it, he sort of made the conversation more about her, so when a question came his way, he'd redirect it and make it to her, so then when this lady was asked about what was it like going on a date with these two men, she said, when I got up from the table after sitting next to Mr Gladstone, I thought I was sat next to the cleverest man in England, but when I got up from the table after sitting next to Mr Disraeli, I thought that I was the cleverest woman in England, and I love that, whether it's true or not, it doesn't matter to me, because what we're talking about there is understanding the impact that you have on other people, and that's where that line sort of came to me in terms of being the most interested person in the room, so often, and unfortunately in the modern world we're living in, people aspire to be the most interesting person in the room, but the ones that create connection, the ones that have a real positive impact on others are the most interested, and ways to do that are just remembering people's names, remembering what people say, if somebody tells you about the weekend, you follow up and ask them about it on Monday, instead of sort of fighting to sort of, you know, put more noise out there, I think it's about sort of sitting back and quietly observing what people are saying and picking up on that, and being that interested person, because you know when someone's really paying attention, you know if somebody really cares, and they're the ones you're naturally more drawn to, so after hearing that story I've tried to be the more interested person in the room, definitely. MARK I love it, it's such a brilliant story, and we're going to completely believe every word of it is true, and that's fine, we accept it, but it's like you say, it's the ripple effect again, ripple effect of positivity that you sort of talk about a lot, you know, how you make a room feel when you walk in, and when you leave, that's something you can control, it's the only thing you can control. You're at the front of the room, you've got 200, 300, 500 people in front of you, what is your best hope in terms of how you leave them, how you leave that room feeling? HANNAH I mean the thing I always say to audiences, and I guess to myself, is that if they can just take one thing away from this, you know, I tried to pack it full of lots of things, I'm excited, you can tell, and if they can just take one thing, and just try and do one thing differently, then that for me is a win. I often think that the Art of Brilliance message is, as you know, because I know you've read the books, and you're well versed in what we talk about, is the very simple things we're talking about. Often you can have people sort of say, well, I kind of knew everything you've just said there, and I'm like, yeah, I get that, but my question back to you is, are you actually doing those things? And what I try to do is make it so appealing, so simple, so accessible, that it's like, you know what, all right, let's give it a go. What's the worst that could happen? Maybe I could try some of this. So, I try, like I say, to make it as practical as possible, so that as many people as possible can walk away with maybe one or two ideas that they can apply from the moment that they leave the room, and just think, all right, let's nudge this from knowing into doing mode, because that's where the magic happens, when we actually do something. MARK Absolutely, yeah. Again, thinking about sort of what you talk about, and how you deliver it, that simplicity is so important, because it makes it feel more accessible, and therefore more achievable, because we all know, you know, we've all been to conferences, and we've all heard fantastic speakers, and we've written, you know, pads and pads of notes, and we get home, and as soon as you walk in the door, the cat's been sick, and you know, life gets back in the way, and you forget all those wonderful things you've heard, but those very simple things, like I say, that very tiny switch to be the most interested, not interesting, interested person in the room, that's got stickiness to it, isn't it? That's why hopefully people actually do then get on to the doing. HANNAH Yes, absolutely. I mean, again, you've hit the nail on the head there. It's wonderful. You know, when you listen or see a speaker, and you come away like you've got goosebumps, and you feel so inspired and motivated, but then you pull out the car pot, you get stuck in traffic, there's a road closure, you get diverted, you're an hour later home than you planned to, and then you've got to sort of do the tea, deal with the cat sick, and get up the next day, and you know, and you're like, what was that thing again? And it's like, it's wonderful listening to these people that have, you know, achieved amazing things. Absolutely, gosh, we want more of that. I love it so much when I hear that. But yeah, I think my, I don't know, what I really try and pride myself in is about how ordinary people can do extraordinary things, and by doing sort of very simple, practical tools and techniques that they can all have a go at, and try and sort of, you know, lower the stakes a little bit, you know, you haven't got to climb Everest to have an amazing life. But you know, if you can change your attitude, and try and be a little bit more positive, goodness me, magic can happen that way as well. MARK Yeah. Yeah, very true. I'm going to flip the question a little bit, because as you were talking, so in terms of people who've been on front of the stage, when you've sat in the audience, name a couple of people that have made you kind of feel the pad, and then take action. Who's really inspired you? HANNAH Oh, crikey, you put me on the spot here. Oh my goodness me. Gosh, do you know, many, many years ago when I was, so I worked for a jewellery company for a number of years after university, and I used to do like the events coordinating, and I did an event with TAG, the watch company. I'm pointing to my wrist, it's an Apple watch, it's definitely not a TAG, just to be clear. And I did an event with TAG, and the speaker there, I mean, I was at, like I said, just finished university, so I was early 20s, and Benita Norris spoke. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Benita Norris. I think, you know, gosh, I hope I get this right, Benita. She was the youngest ever female, I think, to climb Everest, or maybe even the youngest ever person to climb Everest, okay. And I just remember sitting there, sort of listening to her, she was a fantastic storyteller. She was sort of talking about sort of climbing Everest, and sort of finished with, and I did it all with a TAG watch on my wrist, and sort of brought it all back. And I remember just thinking, wow, this person's only like a year older than me, and she's got so much about her, she's achieved so much. Why didn't I think like that when I was at university? Why didn't I think about raising loads of money to try and, you know, get some funding to go and climb Everest? I didn't think like that, you know, like, wow. And I just remember not at all thinking, I want to do that one day, in terms of speak or even climb Everest. But it was just this moment of like, gosh, people my age can do amazing things. And gosh, that was, you know, quite some time ago now, and it's always sort of stayed with me. And it's wonderful to see, actually, from a distance, like, she's gone on to do great things as a speaker, and continues, I think, to climb mountains, and is inspiration, like, to young women as well. So, she's always sort of stuck in my mind, definitely. MARK Fantastic. I'm going to look her up. I should. HANNAH Do, do. See if you can get her on. She'd be great. MARK Wow. Yeah. Well, why not? Yeah. It's the worst that can happen if I ask. It's a very good point. Thank you. Thank you. Now, you said you read lots of books, and lots of books behind you. I can see Love Notes, which is yours. HANNAH Yeah. MARK Tell us a little bit about that one. Tell us a little bit about Love Notes. HANNAH Okay. Yes. So, Love Notes is, well, there's a couple of different things with Love Notes, to other books, really, out there, is that, you know, with books, it's typically, you've got the writing, and then the occasional illustration sort of supports a bit of the writing. This is kind of flipped on its head. So, Love Notes is all about the illustrations, with some of the writing, sort of complementing those illustrations. So, Love Notes kind of came out of our illustrator, Amy Bradley's brain. She always wanted to do a book that was sort of lots of gorgeous illustrations, and then have some writing to support those illustrations. So myself and Andy Cope, we did the words, Amy did the gorgeous pictures. And it's basically a book that you dip in and dip out of, that just might sort of just bring a smile to your face, get you to reflect on something. So, it's full of stories, it's full of ideas. There's an odd poem, even, in there. You've got to put a bit of Mike Milligan in there, and his poem, Smile, that's in there. But it's just, it's one of those books that you just kind of walk away feeling a little bit like warm and fuzzy. So, the second thing that makes it a little bit different is that you're not allowed to keep it. So, this is kind of just for show, because I actually do need to pass it on. So, the rule of Love Notes is that you read it, you can write your name in the front, there's space for you to write your name, but then you pass it on to somebody else. So going back to that idea of the ripple effect you mentioned, Mark, it's that idea of find somebody that you think would benefit from this book. They also write their name, read it, enjoy it and pass it on. So, we're trying to sort of spread the love, so to speak. MARK Oh, I love that. I didn't know that. That's brilliant. Oh, do you get, sorry, go on. HANNAH No, no, no, go for it. No, it's just, it's just a nice little thing to do, I think. MARK It really is. But do you get, I mean, is there anywhere, like on social media or things like that, do people come back to you and say, this was passed to me and I took this? Do you get that kind of feedback? HANNAH Yes. Do you know what, actually, in person, which is wonderful. So, I've gifted it sometimes at the end of a keynote to people and it's either people have gotten, get in touch with me via email or when I've gone back again and spoke to them a few months later, they're like, oh, do you know, I know you're not meant to keep the book. Well, I just couldn't help myself. I've gone and bought a couple of extra copies and I've now gifted them to other people. And I'm like, oh, that's nice. You're allowed to do that. Just make sure you do a bit of gifting. MARK Yeah. That's, that's a good way around it. Yeah. Because, because I guess if it is that kind of warm and fuzzy and that special, you are going to really kind of want to keep it close. Brilliant. And that, is that your first book? Was that the first? HANNAH Yes, that was. That was out in January of this year. MARK Oh, wow. Cool. But there's a second one on the way. HANNAH There is. There is. Yes. MARK Tell us more about that. HANNAH So this one, I've got it, I've got it to hand. There it is. So it looks very different to Love Notes. This is The Art of Focus that, again, wrote with Andy and Ollie, who's also on the team as well at Art of Braille. A very different book. So there are some illustrations in there, but there's really not many. It is chock full of words. And I'm actually super, super proud of this book, really. It's essentially what we're doing is kind of calling out the modern world and acknowledging the fact that we're all sort of suffering with busyness and distraction. And there's a lot going on. And it's really easy to not feel our best. And part of that comes down to the fact that we're struggling to focus. We're struggling to pay attention to what matters and who matter, really. So, we've sort of addressed some of the problems and what's going on. But then most of the book we're talking about in classic Art of Braille, talking about the solutions, what are the things that we can all do. So, because I think it's very easy, I think, for people to feel that sort of, I guess, focus their attention is being robbed from them. It's being taken away. So, it's about how people can kind of claim it back, what they can do themselves to get it back, and that they can then channel that towards what matters and who matter. MARK I love that. My copy is on its way. Obviously, it's on pre-order at the moment. But I did have a quick look at the blurb and just reminding myself, it's in a world of infinite distractions, we're losing our ability to live fully in the present, I think is part of the blurb, which sounds great. Are you able to tease us with some of those solutions then about living in the present? How do we reclaim those precious moments that we're in? HANNAH Yeah, well, one of the chapters is actually, I think, one of the biggest chapters is sort of kind of dedicated. It's called The Infinite Now. So, it's talking about our relationship with time, and how that we're constantly time travelling in our heads. We're sort of fast forward into the future to when we're on holiday. And I know in your book, you talk about destination addiction, how we're all guilty of sort of that time travel. There we go. We'll be happy then at some point in the future. Or we're going back into the past, thinking about a time when we messed up. Or we're distracted with these things. We're not actually ever in the present moment. So, The Infinite Now is about giving people some really simple, you know, again, classic tools and strategies of how we can be in the present moment more often. Because one of the things we mentioned in the book, and I talk about in my keynotes is that we spend our entire lives only ever in the present moment. So, it's happening right here, right now. But most of us miss the present moment, because we're mentally elsewhere. So socially, emotionally, we are absent. But physically, we might be in the same space as someone. So, it's about how we can be our best and be present for those people that really matter to us. So, one of the things we talk about is, we sort of do a little trip around the world, actually. So, we borrow ideas from places like Japan and the Netherlands. I think we go to Finland. And we sort of do a bit of a global tour of sort of mindfulness, sort of tips and strategies that have been used sort of around the world and throughout history, that come back to this idea of how we can be more present. And, you know, I grabbed the phone, because that is the thing that pulls us out of it most of the time. Yes, mentally, we might be elsewhere. But often, and I'm sure you've seen it all the time yourself, Mark, is you can be sort of in a restaurant or a pub with people and you look around, and people are like this, they're on their phones, they're not actually making eye contact with the people opposite them or next to them. And I remember, when we were researching focus, there was this phrase, I'm probably going to mess up, but hopefully, I'll do it justice. Somebody said something like, we pay more attention to the people that are miles away from us, because of these things, and the people that are actually metres away from us just over, you know, the other side of the table. And that's what it's all about. It's about how our attention is constantly being pulled, and it's taking us away from the present moment. So how we can reclaim it, to then really spend time with, you know, the people that really do matter to us. MARK Absolutely. And again, coming back to the kind of the accessibility and the simplicity, how you translate, again, these very deep, psychological, you are all very highly skilled and trained in that science, translate that into a book that speaks to people, that gives them those little, tiny takeaways, that will incrementally bring them back to the present. How do you, as a team, when you're sat kind of, you know, that really sort of high level thinking of you, this is a thing, this is something that we want to translate for somebody who's just, you know, not feeling present at the moment. How do you bring it back to those simplest terms? What's your kind of approach to making it really speak off the page, if that makes sense? HANNAH I think that was the beauty, actually, of the three of us, because all three of us have very different sort of styles of writing and interests as well. But we were all united in that we want this book to help as many people as possible. So, it's like, okay, we might geek out in some of, you know, the sort of the problem that's going on and looking at it from more of the darker sort of side, that sort of thing, you know, interests us. But bear in mind that most people reading this probably won't want too much of that. So it's about how we can sort of, yeah, make it as accessible as possible to people. So, it's thinking, well, you know, what the average reader might be up against. We call it out, I think, literally from the first page that you actually need to pay attention when reading this book. You know, we know that we are competing with a device. We know that we're competing with a job and being a mum, a dad, you know, a carer, having, you know, wearing multiple hats. So the fact that people are willing to give us their time and attention to read this, we really do recognise and appreciate it. So it's sort of, it's coming back to sort of, OK, what's the goal with this? What do we really want to achieve? And once we sort of set that out, we went off in our sort of different sort of styles and directions, but then kept coming back, I guess, sort of, and I know I mentioned your books. I have got it here, a very good reading, I must say, very good. But what I loved about yours, I don't want to make you uncomfortable, but you kept coming back to that why, that being anchored in your why. And I think that because we sort of had that sort of rock solid why, it allowed us to kind of, even if we didn't necessarily agree with the direction one of us went, it's like, but what's the, what are we working towards? And that, having that North Star, I think, makes such a difference. I'm sure, I'm sure that sort of makes sense to you, because, like I say, I very much enjoyed your book and that coming back to the why was really powerful. MARK And I guess going full circle with our sort of conversation, coming back to why you are such a good speaker and are so passionate about what you do, that why is what kind of helps you step back on stage in front of 400 people last week and this week it's 500 and so on and so forth. It's that you know that what you're doing is so important to you and it matters so much that you're like, right, it's worth the nerves. Is that worth the nerves? Is that a good phrase? HANNAH Yeah, yeah, it is a good phrase. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that one. I like it. You don't mind. Yeah, it is. It really is. It is that sort of when you are passionate about something and you really want to help people and make a difference and you know that what you're saying, you've tried yourself and you've seen other people try and it's worked for them, it's like you want to tell as many people as possible. So whether that's 10 people in the room, 100 people or a thousand people, it's like, okay, come on in. Let me tell you what I know. You get, you do get excited. You can kind of put the nerves to one side. I think one of the things I often do is sort of, you know, when you're being introduced and you sort of sat there and you know you're about to go on the stage, I can feel that, that 16-year-old in me again sort of starting to be like, we don't do this, Hannah. Remember, we don't do, what are you doing? And I have to kind of just like, shush, we do, we do, we do, we will for the next hour, then we can go back to being nervous. Just for the next hour, this is what we're going to do. So, I try to just not let that voice sort of come up too much and even think too much before going on because I think once you start thinking, that's when you spiral and that's when that negative self-talk starts to kick in and you're done for basically at that point. You know, my sort of part of my job, I guess, I can get, you know, described as sort of inspiring people. Well, no one's going to come away feeling very inspired if I'm up there sort of, you know, shaking and sort of looking like, oh yeah, you know, living your best life and I'm all twitchy and nervous, you know. So, it's about sort of, you know, walking the walk, talking the talk and I do still let people know I get nervous because I think, again, going back to that, being vulnerable and being real, it's no trouble people hearing that and sometimes if that's the thing that inspires them, oh my gosh, you can do it. It's like, yeah, I am one of these normal people I'm talking about. If I can do it, I truly believe anyone can. MARK And I'm glad you said that because, again, I think, I think that sort of moment of honesty and like you say, vulnerability that, again, you shared it sort of back in February. I know, I mean, it gets the audience on your side, not deliberately. I know it's not a ploy or a tattoo or anything like that because that's just not you, but it does, it does normalise everything. It just makes everyone just kind of relax and feel a little bit more comfortable, and lean in. And then when they lean in again, they're going to get even more benefit from those amazing little nuggets that you're kind of sharing. So it's, I think it's really special. I've got this thing and I've spoken about it on a couple of episodes before when I had other speakers on. I struggle with speakers who are just a little bit too perfect and have that kind of very kind of performative. This is how I hold my hands and this is how I'm going to go in here. I don't buy into that as much as someone who you can just hear that kind of little wobble in their voice in those first few minutes and then they're away. I love that because then you're kind of like you're with them because you can, you can sense, genuinely sense this is something that really means something to them. And now I want to know more. HANNAH Definitely. MARK Yeah. HANNAH Yeah, absolutely. I, gosh, is it, I've got a book behind me. Jazz. MARK Yes. HANNAH Yeah. MARK Ampaw-Farr HANNAH Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Have you seen her TED talk? MARK I haven't seen the TED talk, but I've seen Jazz speak a couple of times. HANNAH Oh, gosh, you are lucky. I'd love, I'd love to see her in person. My, my mum had a speaker at an inset day a couple of years ago. She was like, Han, I've got to tell you about Jazz. And she just sort of, you know, came away feeling so inspired. So I then got the book and watched her TED talk. But I mean, I think she cries in her TED talk, like the emotion overtakes her. And it's that, that you're talking about there, that that's not polished, that that's not scripted, that that wasn't planted there. That was just her speaking truthfully from the heart, and her emotions just coming out. And I tell you what, that TED talk, you just want to go up and give her a hug and just be like, thank you for doing that. Because unfortunately, what I'm seeing more and more, it might be a bit controversial, I appreciate, in more recent sort of TED talks are so polished, are so scripted, the hands are in a certain position, people don't even sort of, I know you're not meant to leave the red dot, but they don't even like take a step to one side of the dot, you know, it's just like, it's there. (And it's like, when you see someone like Jazz, or going back to, you know, Ken Robinson, back in the day, you know, the most watched TED talk of all time, that just wouldn't happen now. But they're the ones you remember, they're the ones you enjoy, because they're the ones that sort of leave you with not just feeling inspired, but they create connection. And I think that, for me, as a speaker, if I can create connection with the audience, even if it's just one person, hopefully more, but if I can create that sense of connection with one person, and they then feel it, and they want to go and do something about it, and do something with the information I've shared, then I feel that I've done my job, that that leaves me sort of feeling, okay, that's good. And when you get those messages from people, or people coming up to you at the end saying, oh, my God, and saying lovely things, and you're like, okay, that's good. Not because you want to hear the praise, but as in like, okay, go do something with it. And don't even stay, don't talk to me, don't do it. That's what I want you to do. MARK Yeah. I think, I mean, yeah, connection. That's, that's the word, isn't it? That's, you know, if we're going to get around sort of the conversation off here now, which we probably can do, although I could chat to you for hours, because this is just some, probably in my happy place right now. But yeah, that's what, that's what you do so well. That's what great speakers do so well. You connect again, we lean in, we want to hear from you, because we believe in you. So thank you for, for being that kind of person and that kind of speaker. And in terms of connection, how can anyone watching this listening back, how can they connect to Hannah and find out more about what you're doing, where you're going to be next? HANNAH Okay, well, thank you for that, Mark. That's very kind of you to say, because I've listened to your other podcasts, and you've had some amazing guests on already. So, the fact that I'm sort of even in, you know, company with them, and you're saying things like that to me, I'm, that's very kind. So, thank you. People can get in touch with me sort of on LinkedIn. So Hannah Knowles, and then on the Art of Brilliance website, you can see sort of all our keynotes and workshops, and there's a team page, so you'll find me on there. I think sort of, if I can do a little shout out, my sort of passion piece, I know I am a speaker, but I also, obviously, I write as well. So, I'm over on Substack, which I think is at H Knowles, where I do sort of like regular blogs, where I talk about sort of the latest thing that I've discovered, or I find interesting. Typically, it's like a law, or a fact, or a paradox, or a complex, something to do in psychology. And I then sort of take that idea, and I find three very different stories that are kind of linked to that particular idea. And I really love doing that. I really do. MARK I was reading the Batman Substack this morning that you did. Very cool. HANNAH I was hoping Batman would come up, because I know you're into your films. I was hoping we'd get to talk about Batman. MARK Oh, let's quickly do Batman then. So you can be yourself, but you can't be yourself, be Batman. Tell me about that. HANNAH Yeah, basically. Yeah, so it came from a study by a lady called, I think, I want to say, Professor Rachel White and colleagues back in 2017. And she basically wanted to look at perseverance in young children initially. And sort of this research has then sort of been taken further. And it was this idea of sort of; there were three groups. One group of children were basically told to sort of; you need to work hard on a task. And sort of, you know, but by the way, there is an exciting game on the iPad. So, if you need a break, kids, you're okay to use that. So, group one were told sort of, am I working hard? So, first person. Next group were sort of third person. So, is Hannah working hard on this task? They had to ask themselves that question. And the third group was where Batman came in. So, the third group were given the choice of some characters. So it was like Batman, I think there was Rapunzel, Bob the Builder, and Dora the Explorer. And what they found was that group of children within the third group, where they were a character, where they sort of distanced themselves from them as the person and the behaviour and saw themselves as the character. So, thinking, okay, I'm going to be Batman. Batman works hard. They actually stuck with the task far longer than those in any other groups. So, I thought hearing that, gosh, that's fascinating. And in a way, not that I think I'm Batman when I'm on stage, you know, I just want to be clear. But what it gets to is this idea of self-distancing, where you create a bit of distance between you and the scary situation or the situation you find yourself in. And it gives you an opportunity to just kind of pause, breathe and think, how am I going to respond? So, in my Connect the Dots newsletter, I talk about Beyonce, because she famously was Sasha Fierce. That was her stage name in early days of her career when she was too nervous. So, she became Sasha Fierce. I talked about Kobe Bryant and how he had the mamba mentality. He became the black mamba when he was on the court. That's what he called himself. So, he had this deadly sort of technique. And then, you know, because I'm a bookworm, I talked about Margaret Atwood and how her childhood name was Peggy. And she used to really suffer with procrastination because she was so fearful of writing The Handmaid's Tale as being seen as too wacky. (39:16) So she'd do anything she could to avoid actually writing it. So, she had the Peggy version of her and the Margaret version of her. And she was like, you know, Peggy can do anything she likes, but Margaret's got to do the work. Margaret's got to get the words down. And it was this sort of alter ego, the Batman effect, as it's called, is about having this other sort of personality persona, if you will, that creates this distance between you and the situation that might be a bit scary. And it's about, OK, well, what would Batman do? Step in and just pretend to be Batman. So, as I say, I don't pretend I'm Batman on stage, just to be really clear. But there is an element of me that's like, OK, just, OK, Nervous Hannah, you just be quiet for an hour. I'm just going to go up there and pretend that I'm this version of me just for an hour. And then and then we'll go back into being Nervous Hannah afterwards. So I shouldn't say pretend because I'm very much me on there. It's just a different version of me, I guess, on the stage. MARK And as you say, just creating that pause and that distance between nervous you and doing you. Yeah, that's really powerful. Oh, thank you so much, Hannah. Genuinely appreciate this. If you can't be yourself and you can't be Batman, be more Hannah Knowles. I think that's the takeaway from today. Genuinely so appreciative of you joining the show today. Thank you. Have a great week. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back with Mind Monkeys on Friday, the 21st of August, where my next guest will be Dave Oates. So, check out that one. But again, Hannah, genuinely your superstar. Thank you, everyone. And yes, we'll see you all soon. HANNAH Thanks, Mark.