MARK Hello, thank you for joining us on Mind Monkeys Welcome Bananas Optional, our regular opportunity to pause, rename, explain and reframe those common hesitations that get in the way of the successes that we deserve. I'm Mark Franklin, I am your host as we embark on raw, honest, irreverent, important conversations designed to acknowledge and normalise those fears, the fears we each face at work and at play. In order to help you, our amazing listener, reframe those perspectives around the stories that you've created for yourself, perhaps stories that have been feeding those monkeys. My guest today, I'm very excited about this episode, my guest is the glorious Angela Cox. Angela is a master coach; she is founder of Paseda360 where she trains coaches in the Paseda method and develops leaders to understand what sits beneath the behaviours that gets in their way and I want to emphasise that because that's something we will come back to. Angela is the creator of the Pretender Masks model, I'd Stop Being Stuck, she has spent more than 8,000 hours coaching people to understand not just what they do but why they do it and she is fascinated by why perfectly capable, successful people can still find themselves people-pleasing, striving for perfection, doubting themselves or reacting in ways that they later regret. Makes this a perfect conversation for our Mind Monkeys then, this is gonna be right up her street. Angela, let's bring you on, good morning. ANGELA Good morning, what a wonderful intro that was, thank you very much Mark, I'm loving Mind Monkeys. MARK Yes, here we go, all the Mind Monkeys. There are so many things that I want to ask you but I'm going to begin if I may, before Paseda, because just thinking about your story, yeah, because obviously we've chatted many times, I know your story, you're very generous with your story in fact but before you created Paseda, before you were a coach and massing around those 8,000 hours, you were incredibly successful, well you had an incredibly successful corporate career, you were high achieving, high earning, working big companies, very successful, the bosses loved you because you always turned in the work on time and delivered. Why would you step away from something that on the outside looks perfect? ANGELA That's such a great question, before I answer it I've just got to say you've just said about generously sharing my story, you generously sent me cake yesterday as a thank you for coming on the podcast, so I had to just say that, so thank you for the cake, I will enjoy that later, it's still here, I haven't eaten it yet, so thank you for that. Well, where was I? So yes, you know, on paper it was very successful in terms of my shoe cupboard, it was very successful, I had all of the trappings that come with a great job and a great salary that goes with it and you know for many years I was very driven by that because my idea of success was sort of that 1980s vibe around, you climb the ladder, you get to the director, job title and you've made it, you know that is success in the eyes of many, many people and certainly in the eyes of my parents and that generation, that was what success looked like and as a northern girl from Bolton there wasn't much of that around really, you know, most people would stay really close to the community, get jobs locally, often low-paid jobs, so the idea that you could climb a ladder and get this idea of success was always very attractive to me, you know, and I was one of those at school that worked really hard, had all the teachers as their, I was always their favourite because I worked hard and was a good girl, always top of the class and therefore it was just one of those developments really where that was going to be inevitable for me but I had lots of false starts, so I was given a Royal Air Force scholarship when I was 17, paid me to do my A-levels, it was quite rare for women then to get these scholarships because we're talking sort of, what am I now, nearly 50, so this is like 30 years ago, people didn't really get that when you were female, I think it was about 20 women each year were rewarded these things but I absolutely hated it and I went to Cranwell and started the officer training and just hated it, so I had to get a different job in order to not disappoint my dad really because in my head leaving the RAF would disappoint my dad, so I came out of the Air Force, bought myself out, went to this local hotel where I'd been working part-time and said, can you give me a job with manager in the title and then that will appease my dad and the general manager there, Gary Atkinson, very kindly said yes, gave me a job as assistant restaurant manager and I started a kind of hospitality career which lasted a few years, figured out that it was very hard work, you had to work very long hours, so did a little sidestep, got a job in a bank, within about five minutes of working in this bank I was given a branch to run, I mean I had no idea what I was doing, absolutely not, but thankfully had a great team of great people in that bank who managed the branch for me really and I just motivated them and so this career started there in banking, financial services and flourished and I just kept being promoted, over promoted I would say, you know promoted above my capability because when you're promoted very quickly you don't get the foundations of the job that you're doing, you're just into the next thing, you mentioned bosses loved me, they did because I was the good girl, you know I did what they wanted, so that came with reward in terms of promotion but also then came with lots of pressure to try and figure out what I was supposed to be doing every day. MARK I'm going to ask, sorry I was going to ask this, again, oh got a bit of an echo, but that over promotion, are you being a people pleaser and that pressure as you say, were you always looking to kind of meet that requirement of overachievement to please those above you? ANGELA Always, I don't even know and I reflect on it, I don't know who I was trying to please, whether it was the bosses, whether it was my parents, not that my parents put pressure on me to do that, it was all a very internal dialogue, the mind monkeys, but it was this relentless drive of I must achieve in order to prove my worth, you know and I've made that connection later in life, back then it was just being done on autopilot but it very much was connected with if I'm achieving and I get the next thing, the next promotion or you know the next certificate or whatever it might be, then I'm worthy and it became this relentless quest and then you know if I fast forward then to what is it now, eight years ago, well ten years ago, I left corporate, had a great job in a global organisation running business improvement for the whole organisation, started to recognise this exhaustion that goes with this way of working and just decided I needed to get out, so I got out of corporate, went into consulting, thinking that might be better, it was actually like frying pan fire, so did the two and a half years in consulting and then just one day went into work and said I'm leaving because I just can't do this anymore, I cannot keep being this version of me that doesn't feel real, I mean I knew that I was hiding so much of my real self to fit in and belong and I've got to get out and so I just resigned on the spot and got in my car which I hated by the way, this car that I had, I had it because everybody else had cars like that, sports car and I rang my husband and I just said I've resigned today and he was like okay and that was that, that was my going home moment and what the hell am I going to do next? MARK Wow, it's such a huge step but as you say that realisation was so big that it just felt I have to do this, regardless of the sort of fallout, this is where I need to be, but just digging in, I want again coming back to the introduction where you were talking about helping leaders understand what sits beneath, at that point what for you was sitting beneath, what had you noticed in terms of that this isn't my story? ANGELA Yeah I think there were lots of what I call micro moments, so little things where we'd go for fancy dinners in consulting with clients and fellow consultants who were all engineering brained whereas I am not engineering brained, so I always felt like a fish out of water and I really noticed how different I was in that environment but try to emulate them and that could be as small as I always talk about drinking red wine even though I don't like it because everybody around the table would order red wine and so for me to order white wine would feel like I was being awkward or putting people out or being different, so micro things like that but then also things like buying the car that everybody had that when I was inside the car felt claustrophobic, didn't like it, needing to have this external way of showing up in fancy suits and all the shoes and the handbags and all of that to try and fit in, but then even things like masking my accent, you know I wasn't from Bolton, you know I had a posh accent, some of my early videos when I first set up the business I'm still carrying that accent, so things like that but then also then the mind monkeys, you know I talk about the inside jobs or inner critic constantly telling me what I should be doing in order to be accepted by these people, constantly being told that they're going to find out that you're not very clever, which I am by the way, I did well at school but in here there is a disparity between my actual achievement and what my inside job believes, so it was like a culmination of micro behaviours, internal noise, my response to that then was always eating too much and that comes with its own set of you know internal messages about how you look and how people are judging you and trying to carry all of that while trying to do a really responsible job and manage a team and manage clients, I was just exhausted and had no time for my children, my husband, my self-care and it was just like one of those, my first book was called It was like an enough moment. MARK And also, to some extent logically you were capable and you were achieving and in that role you were successful but there was that friction, that tension because the inner you was basically saying this isn't you. ANGELA Yeah, I would say that the friction I describe it as a cost, so yes capable, I don't think you can do that type of job if you're not capable, yes achieving, yes people outside would look in and maybe say I wish I could have all of that, but inside the cost of that is not worth it. I think you get to a point in life where you just start to look at what else is there, you know, how can I get up every day and keep doing this when the cost of it is so huge, when you're spent at the weekend because you've spent so long masking who you are during the week and really the only people that know the real you are the people most close to you, my kids and my husband, but they don't get the best of me because I'm completely spent. MARK Are those micro-moments, the things you're noticing with that cost, which is a brilliant way of putting it, it's so true, you know my story very similarly, how did you turn noticing, acknowledging, accepting that cost and wanted to do something about it into Procedure? ANGELA Well, Paseda came quite a few years after that, so my first step was the resignation and the going home with no clue what I was going to do, but two very important decisions that I made in the car. So decision one was I am not being employed ever again because I recognised that having a boss created this cycle of needing to please, needing to achieve, it's like I was seeking the approval of that person, so I needed to take that out of the equation and my second decision was whatever I'm going to do next I'm earning the same amount of money because I didn't want to affect the lifestyle that we had. So, and it honestly, it never even occurred to me that that second decision wasn't viable. I speak to loads of business owners now and recognise that many people struggle in terms of running businesses, but in my head it was just like well yeah of course I'm going to earn the same amount of money, why wouldn't I? And I really think that decision helped me to be successful in those early years of running my own business. So, at this point those are my two decisions, and I have no clue what I'm going to do, but I go home and I get out a flip chart because we love a flip chart in business and we love a post-it note, I'm like they are my tools. So I get those out and I start two columns, what do I love doing and what do I not like doing about my roles and I start making these lists and then on that I love doing, I realised that there were loads of things that I did love doing, but I wasn't particularly, I know my columns actually were what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, that was the thing, and on my what I'm good at column I realised there was lots of things on there that I didn't love doing, so I was good at them, like data crunching I've become good at, but my god I'd rather stick pens in my eyes, so that had to come off. I didn't want a career that had that involved. The thing that was coming out was people, you know connection with people, coaching people, mentoring people, leading people, the stuff that I'd done with ease in my role and was probably the reason why I'd risen to the top, because I was really good at that and I could say that with such congruence, you know, not with like oh yeah I'm saying it because I'm supposed to say it, I really know that I'm good at that, so I thought right well I'm going to set up as a coach then, and the next day I just put out on Instagram I'm on gardening leave, I'm going to set up this coaching business, so if you want to have some coaching get in touch, and I got a full diary within like the space of a week, it was bonkers. MARK That's the dream. ANGELA I know right, it happens like that these days, but I think I was just in the right place at the right time at that point in social media land. I had high trust with a lot of people on social media because I've got this community in the background, and so it was very easy for that to happen, and then you said how does Paseda happen, well that came five years on from there. MARK Just picking up the flip chart, the post-it notes, the tools of the job, because one of the things that drew me to Paseda as you know is that it's unorthodox in that sense of it's not grow model, it's not smart, it's not let's stick some post-its on the wall and see what sticks kind of thing. You have a very original human first approach, how did you acknowledge and make that shift away from again a world that you didn't love but knew into something braver? ANGELA Yes that's a good question, so when I first started this coaching lark, I'd done it from the point of view of I've been a coaching organisation for years, it was always part of the job and I did like a grow model coaching thing back in 2004 or something, so I thought oh there we go, so I started to just have conversations with my clients who started to pay me, and then I realised that in order to really help them I needed to become properly qualified, because you don't have to qualify, but I just felt I had like an ethical I don't know what the word is because I'm at a puzzle mark, but what's my word I'm looking for, like a responsibility to be able to get qualified properly, so I went to the best place in the world, I went to Cambridge University, did executive coaching diploma with them, it was high quality training, yes it was, but it was also very 1980s, and so I was having been in business improvement all my career, you're always on the front edge of what's new and innovative and bringing new stuff into organisations, so to listen to this grow model style approach, and it was peppered with a little bit of how you know the internal workings of the framework, but it just felt very old hat, and this non-directive style that everybody is wedded to in coaching, you know you mustn't give your opinion, you mustn't offer a solution, you mustn't bring any of you into the room, just felt completely incongruent with who I was, and I didn't want to be incongruent anymore, so I sort of took the Cambridge way of working, got accredited, but then realised I needed something else, and started to train in therapies, and did lots of therapies, and recognised that some of them were complete smoke and mirrors, some of them were proper charlatan, and others had good credibility and good science behind them, so I started with my own clients to experiment, bringing those together into a mix that had business improvement at its core actually, so in business improvement we say what's the current state, before we look at what the future state is, and in the current state we always look at what the root cause issues, before we even think about what we're going to do moving forward, so I started to apply that in the coaching room, rather than what do you want here, let's have a look at this first, and I recognised things like mind monkeys, and sabotage loops, and unhelpful perspectives, and something else, and the something else was the landmines as I call them now, but trigger points that come from things that have happened in the past, that are triggered in the now, and affect our behaviour, and then I had to go to King's College and study neuroscience to understand what this was about, but in understanding that I then found Haven and techniques, a technique similar to EMDR with the same science behind it, and started to bring that into the coaching room, which dealt with those trigger points, and once I had sort of this way of working defined with all of my clients, and my husband just happened to have a brain injury five years ago, which became a real turning point for us as a family, I decided that I could bring that method of coaching that was working so brilliantly with my clients, and broke all the rules of coaching, and bring that in to Paseda, and Paseda was born, 2022 I had the idea, 2023 it was born, and we started to train people in this unorthodox, using your word, method of coaching. MARK I use unorthodox in the most complimentary way, and also you say breaking the rules, you know I would counter that, surely you're writing better rules. Rewriting them, absolutely, yeah, because again what I love there in terms of what you've just shared, and I think it's really strong, yes there are historic business practises that you are well versed in, again that kind of business as usual, current state, but then going deeper, rather than just accepting here we are, this is where we want to be, let's fill the gaps, you're going deeper what are the root causes behind business as we are today, because unless we address those, then we're not going to, whatever we put in place as our strategy, it's not going to work. ANGELA Absolutely, we've got poor inputs, the output will always be poor, no matter how shiny it looks when you first dream it up. MARK And what I love about that, coming back to sort of coaching, and again this sort of my historic kind of conversations with clients before I was Paseda trained, and thinking about that non-directive style of asking the question, because the client knows the answer, they just need help finding it, never the case, but again you could you could suggest, or you could help them find their next step, but unless you've disarmed the landmines, there's still that tension, that resistance, to actually stepping forward, all you're doing in many ways is creating greater frustration, because now they can really see where they want to be, and yet they still haven't got past the mind monkeys to put in the sort of steps that need to make it happen. ANGELA Let's just dig in there Mark, because you just said something really profound in terms of, you know where you want to get to, you can see it and it all looks brilliant, and yet you're still getting in your own way, and this is so common, I mean you know if you're going to write a book, you could write a book about that in itself, it's so common, but what does that do in here right, you know you want to get there, you see other people getting there, everybody else seems to be able to do it, and you can't, it's not that everyone else can by the way, but you think they can, the internal dialogue that sets up as a result of that perceived failure is so harmful, and yet we don't talk about it enough, because in coaching what we tend to do is go, shiny thing, how do you get to it, let's break down the steps that you've got to take, and when you don't take the step, oh let's just kind of gloss over that, and redefine the steps again, and we can't gloss over it, we've got to like get into the depths of it, and understand what's going on, why, but even the why isn't enough, because just understanding something doesn't change it, we need things like havening, because the havening disarms the landmine that is creating the automatic response in the body, that is then fuelling the mind monkeys. MARK Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and it's, I mean it's so powerful when you see it in action, because I mean I sometimes use a sort of analogy of our jobs as coaches to kind of clear the runway, kind of let somebody take off, and those mind monkeys are kind of obstacles on the kind of concrete that they need to pick up and put to one side, but again something that you talk about a lot, which I thoroughly respect, is this idea of acknowledging, acknowledging again naming, reframing, considering, resolving, as opposed to dismissing, you know, we're going to ignore that, you know, and move on, so tell me more about that, because again it's another reason why I was like because this is my kind of mantra, this is the dig into it to better understand it, to use it for you rather than against you. ANGELA Yeah, it's a nice way for you rather than against you, because I feel like in personal development terms there is this idea, I mean it's cool when people talk about self-mastery, and it's the idea that you can eliminate the mind monkeys, you can dispose of self-doubt, you can get rid of all the things that make us human and become a robot, and it sells, of course it sells, because that's the silver bullet that everybody wants, is I'm going to become this version of me that has everything in control, and the self-development world seems to just pretend that there isn't this human element to us that has the mind monkeys and all of that jazz and all the automatic responses, it's like we just won't, we won't even allude to that, and we'll sell you this dream, and it always frustrated me, because you know as a 30 something I was always searching for that dream and invested in lots of things that didn't ever bring the dream, so with my clients I've always been properly straightforward, it isn't about getting self-mastery, it isn't about becoming this robotic version of you, it's about actually accepting and acknowledging that we're human, all of this jazz that nobody talks about goes on, and I think that's part of the problem, nobody talks about it, and what we've got to be able to do is learn how to operate the system, and if we can operate the system and learn how to manage all the little nods and the little tweaks along the way, then we will feel better on a daily basis, and sometimes we'll feel better and other days, you know, not so good, and we'll have this sort of up and down, but it's within a set of constraints that feel manageable, and I'd rather that, I'd rather be honest with people, because then when they're in a situation where they have a dip, or a landmine pops up that they weren't aware of, they go, oh yes, just that thing again. Here's what I've got to manage it. Here's my tool set that can help me reframe or can help me put that into perspective or to think about what else it could mean rather than my automatic response. And I think all these self-mastery folks up here are just masking. They're pretending everything's amazing and it's not. MARK You've taken the words out of my mouth because I wanted to go back and say from what you're saying, the self-mastery kind of shysters are in many ways promoting the pretenders which you so very much talk about and dig into and explore. A toolkit I think is just a fantastic way of describing, again, the landscape of resilience that you help create for your clients. Because like you say, you'll have good days, you'll have less good days. But on those less good days, you've got the things around you to help you bounce back or remain slightly higher than a deeper dip might have otherwise sort of led to. I'm talking about that higher level of contentment; I'm going to use that word. I'm thinking about the partners that you work with. Now, again, we've talked about this many times. One of the reasons I was first attracted to Paseda was the relationship you have with the art of brilliance. We had Hannah Knowles on here recently, Andy Coates next year, whole positive psychology piece. Again, an awful lot of neuroscience behind that thinking, same as you, very well trained at the highest level, but very much focused on human-centric issues. It's about people, it's about the little things. Tell me more about that relationship. Tell me more about how that connects and expands on what Paseda is capable of. ANGELA Oh, Dr. Andy, I mean, I was like his ultimate fangirl, I've got to be honest. So this is like, I was still employed when I first came across Andy, and I ran this event called Mojo. And it was an event for charity. I got loads of lovely speakers. Dr. Andy said, a speaker from art of brilliance. We had Paul McGee, who's another self-help writer. We had Greg Searle, the Olympic rower, loads of inspirational people. And we did this event, and I've got to that stage by just writing to Andy one day and saying, I'm doing this thing, I've read your books, love what you're about. Will you come and speak? And he was in India, so couldn't speak, so sent one of his co-writers. So that was wonderful. And then I wrote my first book in off. Still, I was not in business then, I was still employed. So I said, oh, Dr. Andy, of your books, I've written one, would you mind reading it and giving it an acknowledgement? Here's the manuscripts on a Word document. And he was very gracious, did so, gave me some lovely words, which appear on the front cover. And that was that. And then I'm knocking on his door a few years later, going, I'm doing this thing, would you be able to send me a speaker? Yes, of course, I'll send you a speaker, Angela, send me a speaker. I've written another book, would you write the forward? Yes, of course, I will write the forward. And every time, because I believe in reciprocity, Mark, every time he would do something for me, I'd go, what can I do for you? And he'd go, nothing. So I'm like racking up all these favours, and he's asking nothing in return. And I'm going, what is wrong with this man? Like, nobody does that. But Andy does. And so, when I built the business, he'd help me out a few more times. And then when Paseda came along, and I wanted to incorporate positive psychology into our courses suite, I thought, well, you know, he's got a PhD, but he's also superhuman. And he doesn't do it from that charlatan point of view, that you can become this sort of superhuman without any foibles. So, we were very aligned. And he seemed like the perfect partner. And so of course, I go knocking on his door again, got this idea. I want to build this diploma in positive psychology; do you fancy doing it with me? And he was like, yeah. So, the day later, I sent him this Trello board with the whole thing mapped out. And he was like, flipping heck, Anj! I was like, all you need to do is this, this is a big list of things you need to do. And we did it. MARK Amazing. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, again, surround yourself with good people and magical things happen. And he is very much good people. ANGELA It's trust, though, isn't it? Like trust, you know that I talk about I'm okay, you're okay in the coaching room all the time where we meet each other as equals in that room. And you know that we talk about Charles Green's trust equation a lot as well. And for me, you know, from a trust perspective, I don't trust many people, I'm going to say that openly with the background that I have, if you ever read enough of my first book to understand, it's very difficult to place your trust in someone. And the thing about Dr. Andy is he's got the credibility, he's got the reliability of showing up when you need him. But he also can say no to things, which I fully respect. But he's also got that intimacy, because he really cares about other people being successful. And I just love that about him. MARK I think the same can be said for you, to be fair, I think you very much have all of that shine out of you. Because you have found that thing that is the real you now. That's why it's shining so much brighter. So what is next? What is next for Angela? What is next for Paseda? It feels like it's a really exciting point in time for them. ANGELA I mean, this time, this time last year, I said, oh, we've just finished building our last programme. So, we've just finished human centric team coaching diploma. And I was like, right, that's it for building now. We're not building anymore. We've got six amazing programmes, we've got our community, we've got the conference and the national coaching awards, like that's enough. But then I remembered that when we first came up with the idea of Paseda, my vision for it was that we'd have the coach training academy, build capability through that, and then take that capability back into organisations, and coaching the Paseda way. And I was like; I really need to start that. So, I've been putting it off and putting it off, it's really hard work. It's like, almost like raising another business. And then I've just gone No, now is the time. So, one of the things that's coming next is I've been working with a brilliant brand agency called WDC Creative. And my old boss from consulting, who's been in my life now for many years before I worked in consulting is about 20 years been my mentor. He has been helping me create the proposition. And we are going to create Paseda 316, which is almost like the methodology and the company that you know today, into two different brands. So, we're going to have Paseda coach, which is all of the coach training academy, and then Paseda leader, which is going to be all the leadership development stuff. So anytime now, we're just in the builds of the websites and various things that will be coming out. But honestly, Mark, the resistance has been futile, because it's such a massive thing. Like we're going from Paseda 360, which everybody knows, it's on my wall, you know, it's everywhere. And you know, I love Paseda green. And Paseda green is a non-accessible colour. So, you can't see text written on top of Paseda green digitally. I didn't know this was a thing. But I've learned it's a thing. So, we've had to change the colour. Don't worry, I'm not going like orange, like because there's only you and Gus can have orange, sticking with green. But various shades of green. But we've also dramatically changed the logo. And obviously, we're going to have these two brands. So that means rebranding thousands of course assets, which of course, I was like, I don't want to do that. But then I thought, perfect opportunity to re go through all of our courses again, update them all. So, we're doing it because we're all hard work at Paseda. So that's coming. And then as you know, we've got the conference and awards going on. So, the conference is in February, if you're a coach, enter the awards. The entries close at the end of September. And we'll have the big awards ceremony and conference in February. And the other big thing I'm doing, Mark, is writing my third book, which you have a wonderful role in. Do you want to tell everybody about that? MARK I can, yeah. So, you've very kindly involved me in the sort of the design of the book, the design, the layout, the sort of cover and so forth. So, it's, yeah, I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity. And also, I'm getting to sort of have that sneak read before everyone else. It's an incredible book. I've got to say, I'm not just saying this because I'm involved. Genuinely, the first few chapters that I've seen, everything we've kind of talked about today, it just shines off the page. And it feels like if I make, because obviously I've read a couple of your other books as well, it feels like you've really consolidated your voice now in terms of, this is where I'm at. I've found that me, as you say, completely congruent, completely shining. This is the change I want to see in the world. And what's really interesting, just coming back to again, that business as usual to where you want to go, digging into the roots of current state. It sounds like you're going, you have just been through that exact same thing for Paseda. ANGELA I mean, and that's why I share that it's been so hard, because, you know, it'd be easy for me as the coach to go, oh yeah, I've got it all together. We're just sailing through this. But the resistance is massive. The fear, the fear is massive. What if nobody buys? What if nobody comes? What if we do all of this work and it's a disaster? You know, what am I going to look like? All of that is still there. But what I do now is rather than let that fuel me to exhaustion, I just go, it'll be okay. You know, and some things won't be okay, and that's okay too. I've had enough failures through the eight years in business and plenty of successes to know that we've always got that sort of balance of some things flop and some things fly. MARK Yeah. And again, I'm guessing, I wouldn't say comfort, but acceptance of the fact that, as we say, life gets in the way, things will throw up, there's things that aren't going to work. But because you are so much closer to being in that place of genuine contentment, the bumps are easier to kind of sort of ride. And it's, you're more prepared. ANGELA I think that's right. MARK Yeah. ANGELA I think when I wrote my second book, Ma, 2020, it was almost, I almost felt apologetic about writing it because I'd had several years of working with people but hadn't fully formulated my own thoughts around that. And it was sort of, you know, it's a book that's helped many people and there's a lot of good stuff in it. But this book that's coming in November just feels like I completely believe in it. I absolutely know in my bones that the things that I'm sharing in that book are credible because of the 8,000 odd hours of spending time with people and seeing those patterns. So, the fear I would normally have around what if someone says I'm speaking rubbish or what if someone, you know, says it's already been said before, all of those fears that I had with the second book, which I actually kept that book quite small, this one, I'm like, no, I know that all of the stuff in that page, on those pages is what happens in humans every single day. But I also know that not enough of us talk about it. And so, I want this to be like the thing that helps people open up those pages and go, she's talking about me. MARK And seeing and recognising yourself in the book, in the content that you share in all the work that all the procedure coaches do, that sort of connection is so powerful. And if I may just kind of round things off now with probably an unrealistic question, but again, for anyone listening who recognises those monkeys, perhaps who's feeling, again, that friction, that tension, wherever they are, and they're thinking about what's over there, how do I get there, what would your first piece of advice to them be? ANGELA I would say rather than go over there and what's over there and how can I get there, I would say go within, go within first. You've really got to understand who you are, why you are, what's driving you, what those landmines are. And from that position, then you can start to build your self-value and build your self-trust. And once you've built those two things, the thing that's over there that was going, come to me, you don't want it anymore. You don't want the shoe cupboard. You don't want the sports car. You don't want that big next job title, because when you've got self-value and self-trust, what you want is completely different, because those external validation factors matter so much less. MARK And if I may just finish on your words, once you have that clarity, you're much closer to feeling that you are enough. ANGELA Oh, totally. I mean, it's an overused statement, isn't it? But that's the ultimate goal is waking up every day, no matter what's thrown at you, and knowing that you're enough, whatever the baseline is. It's okay. MARK Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Angela. We shall leave it there, but I thoroughly appreciate your time this morning. ANGELA Thank you. I'm going to go and eat cake now. MARK What a perfect way to spend a Friday. ANGELA Lemon drizzle or Victoria sponge choices. MARK Who knows? I think it's a win-win either way. But look, have a fantastic day. Thank you, everybody who tuned in. Again, you can watch this back on LinkedIn or any other place that you prefer to choose to listen to your podcasts. But again, we'll be back on the 21st of September with Nicky Souch, who is a mindset expert business strategist. But until then, again, Angela, you're a super, superstar. Can't wait for the book to be out. Everyone's going to love it, and I will see you soon. And thank you, everybody. We'll see you all soon. Take care.