MARK Hello, thank you for joining us on Mind Monkey's Welcome Bananas, optional, a regular opportunity to pause, then name, explain, and reframe the most common hesitations that get in the way of the successes that we deserve. I am Mark Franklin, I am your host as we embark on raw, honest, irreverent, and important conversations designed to acknowledge and normalise those fears, the fears we each have within work, within play, in order to help you, our amazing listener, reframe perspectives around those hesitations, around the stories you perhaps created for yourself that may be feeding those monkeys. Now, my guest today, my guest today is the delightful Sally Day. Sally is a marketing and engagement consultant and trainer. She does mentoring, running workshops, making marketing accessible for everyone. With nearly 20 years of marketing experience, she supports SMEs and charities with everything from tone of voice, brand identity, to content strategy, creative workshops, and marketing mentoring. She also has a flourishing online and offline book club community called Sally's Non-Fiction Book Club. Sally, welcome to the show. SALLY Hello, thank you, what a lovely introduction, thank you so much, and happy Friday. MARK No, it's a delight to have you. Happy Friday to you. Yeah, how's your week been? SALLY Yeah, no, it's been okay. I have been a bit groggy with a cold, so sorry if I sound a bit husky. But yeah, no, I've been okay, just been cracking on, yeah, keeping my head down, staying inside and staying cosy. So yeah. MARK Nice, yeah, and the temperature has dropped, so cosiness is a good thing. SALLY Yeah, no, it's really good, yeah. How about you? You've been okay? MARK Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, I'm good, yeah. Again, just feeling a little bit nippy, and again, wanting to be cosy. And I'm sure we'll talk sort of cosy when we come back to things like campfires and conversations and book clubs and so on. So we're both old hands sitting around a fire and talking books. But although we have no fire today, we're going to talk books, we're going to talk marketing, and we're going to talk fears and hesitations. And if I may begin, just by, this is a question I ask pretty much every guest at the start, in terms of how does fear or hesitation show up for you, or for the people you serve? SALLY Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Lots of fears. I think definitely as a marketing person, there's this weird kind of like, meta universe where it's like, I'm marketing, marketing. So it feels like I have to be the best at marketing myself. But actually, it's really hard. I think there's like a phrase like, plumbers have bad bathrooms. It's like, you kind of neglect your, I don't know if I just made that up. MARK But no, we're keeping it. That's going in the show notes. That's fantastic. SALLY No offence to all plumbers. But you know, like you kind of neglect what your own personal craft is. And I guess it's kind of like, it's always put a spotlight on it, even more, because that is your craft. So I think my fear is becoming like, I don't know, I have too much cringe around my own marketing. And then also that becomes like a portfolio in itself. So it just becomes kind of, you know, like, I don't know, this pressured thing, which doesn't need to be that deep. But I just get a bit like, yeah, I worry about it too much. And then I do see that fear in other business owners I work with, but definitely small business owners, who don't have necessarily marketing resource to rely on, or don't have the background. And then, you know, someone's like, can you do a video? And they're like, what, like, I'm a finance expert, or, you know, like a facilities person. And I think it does take people out of their comfort zone to kind of put themselves on the internet. And I personally don't enjoy putting myself on the internet that much. Like, this is lovely, because it's very relaxed and organic. But yeah, doing like a video, for example, is quite like intimidating. So yeah, if I could be a marketing consultant without having to market myself, that would be quite good. Which is brilliant. MARK But yeah. I like you say, that's what that sort of method is kind of like, it's like looking in the mirror of the mirror of the mirror of the mirror, isn't it? SALLY Yeah. MARK But you mentioned the word cringe, which I think is a really interesting one, particularly for lots of sort of self employed business owners. So, they are the only person in their business and anything to do with marketing means putting themselves out there. Which brings like you say that, I mean, cringe is a great word, but that awkwardness, that discomfort, that displeasure, it's, as you say, it's often not a skill that they're trained in. It's not something that they want to add to their portfolio of services. How do you then help somebody who is saying, I want to grow my business, but I don't really want to make it about me when they are their business, they are the product? SALLY Yeah, no, yeah, it's really tough. I guess I firstly lead with like empathy, because I'm like, I can see where you come from. And I understand that. And then I guess we go over like a bit of a two pronged approach where we're like, what do you feel comfortable with? Like, let's sit in your comfort areas. I don't want you to be doing like TikTok dances in the street, if that's not what you want to do. I wouldn't coach that anyway. But you know, like, if you don't want to do something comfortable, don't do it. So, like, let's sit in the areas that you feel happy with and secure with. And then let's talk about what you think, you know, your audience wants. And have you done research? Or do you know you have any knowledge from like your sector of what works? So, for example, with myself and like other kind of B2B businesses, LinkedIn is like obviously really, you know, good opportunity and a place to be. And maybe that's the only social media channel you need to focus on as an individual. You know, you're not necessarily needing like hundreds of customers at a time. So maybe that alongside going to networking, or you know, reaching out to old clients, and that is enough. So, I, you know, I've tried to be as realistic as I can without being like, let's do this big, broad, massive marketing campaign. You know, let's look at what you want, what's suitable, but what's kind of fair in the kind of limitations of your time and your energy, but also your appetite for things. I don't want people to feel like it's really icky and uncomfortable. Like, you know, if you've got a big team that can support you, or you've got a big budget, that's great. But I think yeah, when you're on a, you know, a smaller budget as a, you know, independent person on small business, yeah, I think you need to have a bit of and lean into stuff that feels good. And then it will naturally be attracting the right people. So yeah, you don't have to be everywhere, pick things that feel good, and that make you feel confident. But yeah, I guess that is going to be a little bit discomfort. But I guess I can, you know, help people through that and try to, if they're willing, you know, if they don't want to, that's fine. But if they're willing to help you kind of overcome things. MARK Because it's a lot of it's a lot of responsibility on you to help people move into that space. But again, coming back to the solopreneur, the sole business owner. There's, we talk a lot about the importance of personal brand, we talk a lot about storytelling, we each have a story to tell. And that story is our own. That's what makes us special and unique. And if we're able to find a way to share that story, then that's that helps us stand out, gives us a voice, creates our authenticity, our authority. But when you are on your own, and for all sorts of reasons, not just confidence, but there might be elements of your story you just don't want to tell. How do you I don't like to use the word commercially, but you know, we're in businesses and we're trying to make a living from it. How do you help somebody profit commercially, through marketing when their brain is just saying, I don't want to do this? SALLY Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is really hard. And like, first, I go back to that comfort piece. And I say, don't share things you feel uncomfortable about. I think there's a really important message around like authenticity, you know, people might want to share quite a lot about their lives or about their background. Some people don't feel comfortable doing that. So, I think, be really clear about where your boundaries are, and like your non negotiables are, in terms of what you feel comfortable sharing with the internet, because it can be quite vulnerable. And also, you know, that is your life. And in some ways, some people might not want to reveal stuff. So, I think have a kind of look at your values and where they fit and how that can associate with your content and how you show up. And I think yeah, talking commercially is quite, you know, yeah, we are we aren't here just to have a good chat down the pub. And I think link up with Yeah, look at your values and how you can kind of tie in stories to them. And then that will hopefully attribute to your business naturally. And yeah, I think looking at your business objectives, as often as you can say, without being too kind of like serious, I think you can look at how you can tie in your content with your business objectives, there'll be certain themes and seasons throughout, you know, your sector, that you'll be able to tie certain things in. I don't think it has to be really, like, deep, like, I think sometimes it can be quite silly. And, you know, it might be like, National Pet Day, or I don't know, National Chocolate Day, or I don't know, it doesn't always have to be like, here's this big vulnerable story, it can be like, here's a picture of my dog, I love walking, or just showing like a different facet of your personality to show that you're a relatable person, and you're nice to work with. And you know, that you're like, you know, two dimensional, three dimensional person, you're not just the service provider that's like, you know, sitting on LinkedIn. Is that kind of answered? Sorry, I've come a bit rambling. MARK It does. No, no, it's great. And it's kind of, I mean, my mind has kind of sort of leapt into something that I'm experiencing at the moment as well, in terms of that, like you say, you're telling your brand, building, you're showing up as your authentic self. So that people relate to you, want to have a conversation with you, find out a little bit more, because they're kind of building that picture of trust. What I'm finding, again, let's lean into your expertise, because you may know the answer to this. What I'm finding, particularly on LinkedIn, is when you tell those human stories, when you show a picture of your dog, where you are frivolous, and you kind of People love that. SALLY Yeah, yeah, yeah. MARK When you do anything that relates to the service you can provide, the transformation you offer, the difference that you make for your clients, the sort of reach tanks. And it's, I guess there's sort of a frustration might be the wrong word. But there is that kind of challenge of, I can tell you my story, I can tell you why I think for me, I can tell you why I'm good fun. And, you know, if we if you to work with me, we'd have this great relationship. And we kind of sit down, you know, there'd be a bit of music, and there'd be a bit of banter, and, you know, a bit of geekiness and stuff. But if I sit here and say, Okay, Sally, so I can help you with your mindset, because I do this, that and the other. It's kind of tumbleweed, isn't it out there on all the platforms? What's your what's your best advice for someone who's kind of trying to find that balance between delivering their promise, or demonstrating the service, but also bringing that humanity? How would you balance that? SALLY Yeah, it's a real challenge. And I yeah, I wouldn't say I've got it kind of nailed. And yeah, I think a lot of it is maybe a bit of trial and error, a bit of experimentation, and seeing what works, what doesn't work. I think also, there's a kind of perspective we need to have around like, you don't need to go viral, or you don't need to have like a million impressions. Depending on your business, you know, you might only need like five customers at a time. So have a kind of reality check of like, how many people do you think this needs to actually, you know, reach to get your customers? But yeah, I would say a good ratio, I don't know, like 70% storytelling, and like talking about your value, talking about your expertise, maybe like 30% selling, you know, maybe like one out of five posts, you're being a bit more salesy. But you'll be able to like work out your own rhythm and what works. But I think, especially on LinkedIn, everything needs to be like a value add. So, you're sharing your expertise, you're sharing advice, you're giving away a little bit of your kind of service for free. And then that adds as like acts as a little kind of taster or a little kind of nugget of all this is intriguing, this is curious, let's get to know more. So yeah, for example, I talk a lot about storytelling or showing up online as yourself. So, I might share like, you know, how to find stories or how to be more curious, or, you know, how to turn something into a case study, or, you know, those kinds of things that are quite practical, quite like quick, but quite like, super useful things. And then maybe every, I don't know, week or two weeks, I might be like, by the way, I've got this workshop happening. Or this is how you can kind of work with me if you want to. So I think, yeah, that's kind of the approach of not being too salesy. But at the same time, you do need to tell people what you do. I've had clients that have gone too far the other way, that actually they become almost like, like a content creator in their own right. And I'm like, no, but people need to know that you've got a service, and that you do deliver something like to people individually. So yeah, being salesy or being kind of direct to your service is cringe, but I think you can do it quite a light way and just be really clear and direct. And I would encourage you to have like those actual posts where you're like, this is a reminder of my services, or even like package it up into like, I don't know, I had a good success story, or here's a nice testimonial. Or I don't know, this is something new that I've got excited about. I don't know, what do you think, Mark? How do you approach things? MARK Again, I don't think I've got the balance right. And I think, and it's something that the first guest I had on the show, a lady called Janine Coombes, who's a coach for coaches, helping them kind of think about their business package. Something that she said, which I think is really true, is when you're telling your story, and sort of bringing your sort of human self, there's that possible danger that you slip into what she calls like the friend zone. So people are really getting to know you, they're getting to like you, but they're not getting any sense of why they should work with you. SALLY Yeah, like, you're just a nice person to talk to. Yeah. MARK Yeah. SALLY Yeah. MARK Which, you know, coming back to those kind of fears, we would like to be liked. But there's, there is that sort of divide, that gap, that chasm, even between, oh, lots of people like me, and nobody wants to work with me. SALLY Yeah, what's going on there? MARK Which is really, and I think, yeah, what are your experiences there? Have you got sort of clients who sit either side of that kind of chasm, and they're sort of struggling to get from one to the other, they really like to not get clients, or they're getting lots of clients, but they don't feel they're demonstrating their story? What's your, yeah, what's your experience? SALLY Yeah, no, and I can relate to that thing. I'm really like, say one of those people I'm networking where I'm just like, having a chat, there's nothing related to work. And then they'll be like, what do you do? And I'm like, I've forgotten what I'm here for. So I think it's really easy when you're interested in people to forget that you're like, yeah, I'm actually trying to sell something. But yeah, I guess like, yeah, the kind of trying to really be like, this is what I do is my business. I think you need to get your elevator pitch really nailed. And be really confident with that. So like one line, where you just go, this is what I do, will help you feel way more confident, and way more, yeah, just like secure in those discussions and in those chats. So whether that's like a spontaneous chat, or a networking event, or even just online, you know, putting that at the bottom of your, your LinkedIn posts, or just, you know, within your like content that you're putting around the internet. I think yeah, I've been really, really clear. It can be two lines. But this is what I do. This is who it's for. This is why and this is the benefit that they get. And then that's just really clear in terms of like the value you're giving. And it can be really hard to get that down to like a really short one or two sentences. But I think that does really help with confidence. And repeating it as much as you can, you'll believe it more. And you'll be like, yeah, this is really cool. And you'll remind yourself of like your usefulness and the power in what you're doing. So, I've got like a really kind of small little flourishing local networking group. And it's really trying to keep it quite informal. But people you can see having those little quick chats, where they're just like, I do this. And we try to be like, don't be too salesy, don't like pitch. So people naturally are just being quite quick with what they're doing. But you can tell that that like brevity and conciseness kind of helps. Because then people are like, yeah, instantly, I understand what you do. And then you can maybe move on to the more kind of relaxed discussions while we work out if we would like to work with each other or if we have a good vibe. But yeah, you do need to be quite direct if you can at the beginning, I think. Do you think that makes sense? MARK It does. Yeah, we met through networking, a number of events. And obviously, I've been lucky enough to attend, as you say, the Business Brew, which is your event, which you've sort of started recently with Claudy Ward. Let's turn this round, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask you. So what are your three top three networking tips for someone who, again, feels that cringe or feels that unease when they walk into a room? SALLY Yeah, yeah. And it's scary. And I've been that person. And yeah, like we probably talked about before, like during COVID, I was really, really bad with my mental health. And I was actually quite scared to leave the house for quite a long period after that. So Kate's with Kate Drewett, who has Fat Squirrel, her outdoor networking was one of the first kind of big networking things I went to because it was outdoors and it felt safe. And then after that, I've like, done basically homework for my therapist to go to more events. And then now I actually enjoy them. And I actually do them through choice. And I would say, yeah, my top tips is, yeah, get your elevator pitch down to a, yeah, down to a T. And it doesn't have to be like the most poetic, beautiful thing, but just clear and concise. I'd say be interested. So go in with a listening angle. And, you know, don't hog the conversation. Don't be like, you know, it's hard when you're nervous. But I think try to be a good listener and ask questions. So be naturally a curious person. So yeah, asking questions, people love talking about themselves. And it shows you're interested, you're keen, you're an interesting person. And then I'd also say, make sure you follow up. So obviously, you don't necessarily connect with everyone you've ever met on LinkedIn for the sake of it. But if you've had some meaningful conversations, or it feels like there's a genuine thing you have in common, you know, be like there. And then can we connect on LinkedIn? I think it's really good to like ask someone personally, and be like, yeah, it'd be lovely to connect. Or if it feels even like stronger than that, like, yeah, let's have a, you know, connect online, like for a virtual coffee or meet up for coffee. I think, you know, that's a really good way to kind of cement the relationship. Because otherwise, you can just be like, oh, they were a really great person. I'm never going to see them again. And so yeah, I'd say, yeah, like the elevator pitch as much as you can being curious and listening. And yeah, being clear on your follow up. But within a kind of concentrated way, like don't just scatter it, you know, keep it quite concentrated. I say, yeah. MARK Lovely. Thank you. And thank you again, for sharing again, your story, your experience in terms of how you've moved back into sort of networking. So, I really appreciate that, you sharing that. The follow up, I feel like I'm sort of getting a free marketing consultancy here. Oh, it's all good. But again, the follow up, because I'm thinking about these conversations. And I know I've done it myself. You've met some really good people, you've met some people you think actually, there's a nice connection here. There's people I could certainly in front of them, and hopefully, vice versa. We're going to go for that coffee. We're going to have that one to one, as everyone kind of calls it. Got to sit and have a one to one. What's your one to one strategy, Sally? How do you... SALLY Yeah, I, you know, I don't think I'm very good at this. I'm very much just yeah, I'd love to get out the house and have a coffee. And then I just meet people and have a nice chat. And then I'm like, Oh, God, I need to, again, I'm not making friends. I think I'm better online. I don't know why online feels more like work focused meetings. It feels like I'm more in the zone, whereas when I'm outside, I'm like, yeah. And I just kind of forget that it's a business thing. That sounds bad, because obviously, I'm good in all business contexts. But I don't know if I'm meeting for a one to one. Yeah, I guess I'm trying to make it like, how would we collaborate? Or how can I help you? Or, you know, is there any way we could support each other? I don't know if it's another creative, I might be like, yeah, what can we do together to like, help each other or enhance each other? Maybe we can do like a joint workshop? Or I don't know, like I quite often meet other people that are specialists in marketing. So like an SEO expert, or like a web designer. You know, I can do bits of that, but I'm not the expert. So if someone wants some like really high end technical stuff, it's out of my kind of skill set. I'd be like, yeah, I can refer them to you. So having people as like partners, I think is a good approach as well. So yeah, I've met a lot of people, which, yeah, I guess a part of my like, you know, freelancer network, where I'd either use as a colleague for advice, where I'd be like, what do you think about this? Like, so they're kind of like work friends, if that makes sense. And then, yeah, people that I'd be like, well, this is a piece of work I'd like to, you know, pass on to you, or even work together on quite often, we would collaborate. But I have definitely been guilty of like, just meeting someone, I think they're really nice. And I think they'd be cool person to chat to. And then we just have a coffee and we end up chatting about like, Glastonbury or something. But then I do think ultimately, you do go, will we get along? So if a work opportunity comes up, we would hopefully be drawn together. MARK Yeah. SALLY So there's a balance, obviously. But yeah, I think I am getting better at making it more focused. MARK But I think you're right, that kind of, again, that sort of connection, even if it feels sort of lighter of touch, at the start, I think it is important. And again, coming back to that, if you're working on your own, and you're the only person in your business, just having a coffee with someone and putting the world to rights, without that kind of that business angle, or that sort of, you know, I wonder if we can work together or not without that sort of undercurrent, is no bad thing. I know that I have too many coffees with too many nice people. But at the same time, if that tops up my energy tank and makes me feel like, yeah, and you know, they've said something that kind of inspires me or that I hadn't heard before, I've learned something might be then put into even some content that relates to. SALLY Yeah, no, I think that and I, I do think like, yeah, as long as you're clear about what you're going in for, like, I've been like, I've said to people, yeah, I'm trying to meet more people in a work context. I am I've literally been really honest and been like, I'm trying to leave the house more. I live on my own. And yeah, so then you do have this kind of really inspiring conversation. And then they might, yeah, try and give you something to help motivate you or pick you up. And I've met some like really kind people who have like helped me through, you know, sometimes which should be really tricky. And I'm like, you're people that I've met like three or four times. And yeah, I think the kindness of kind of acquaintances or like contacts you have is kind of powerful. And yeah, if it's not them referring me work, I think that's still OK. Like, we're humans. And yeah, like it's if it's useful or interesting, I think that's I normally say as long as it's useful, interesting or both. That's a good reason to have that conversation. MARK Definitely. Yeah, I think you've kind of hit it right on the head there in terms of that. If you're if you're clear what it is you want to get from that, even if it is not work related, then then that's good. It's good. I'm just thinking about, again, like you say, sort of meeting up with people and bringing people together and something you do very well is bring people together. And so you've got your networking event, but you've also got the book club. So Sally's nonfiction book club. Tell me about the book club. SALLY Thank you. Yeah, I love the book club. Yeah, I keep saying to people it's like my hobby, but I'm like, no, I need to say it's like this flourishing community because I would love to make it like bigger and more of a kind of entity. But yeah, it's been going for about three years, nearly by the end of this year, every three years. And it's online. It's on the last Wednesday of every month. And we focus on kind of general nonfiction, but it's not we wouldn't really focus on biographies. It's more kind of business leadership, communication, culture, self-development, relationships, kind of that kind of thing. Not always super work focused. Sometimes it can be about like relationships or about like, you know, like partners or conversations. We did one about like friendship. So, it's not like super always about business. And we basically meet online and you can read the book or not read the book. It's super informal. And yeah, it's not like school that we're going to like to tell you off. And I think the nature of nonfiction, there's not going to be like spoilers or anything. It's OK if you haven't read the book. And we just have a kind of relaxed chat around five questions where I prompt people to reflect and to consider things. And it ends up being quite kind of like live brainstorming and reflections. And people end up being quite like open and like almost quite vulnerable, like talking about their feelings and reflecting and lessons learned. And then increasingly, we've had lots of authors come along. And Mark, obviously yourself, you came along last year, which is really cool. I literally met Mark and was like, can you please come to my book club and be an author, which is really cool. I was like straight away. I don't think I scared you off too much because we still talk to each other. MARK So yeah, that's great. Actually, to be fair. So that's an example of you actually sort of with a networking environment being quite focused. Yes. There you go. So, it does work. SALLY Yeah. Yeah. And I think I was like, if you don't want to, it's fine. You know, that kind of stuff. But yeah, I think excitement is sometimes OK if you get keen for something. But yeah, since Mark, I've been quite like bold and just asked authors if they want to come along. And it's been kind of surprising the amount of people that have said yes, because it's just like come along for half an hour on Zoom and we can have a chat with you. And it's very much just like a few questions, relaxed conversation. And I think out of this year, I've had about like eight authors and some of them are like Bloomsbury or like Penguin or like big kind of people that have done like two or three books before and definitely very busy people. But I think there's something around like people go into a group where they're collectively talking about their book. It's like just innately human. They want to hear from them. And it feels quite a nice thing to be in a group of people that are positive about what you're doing. But yeah, that's become quite a nice dynamic where we have a chat with the author and then we go, thanks so much. And then we like basically talk about the book afterwards. But yes, I think it's quite a small group, like it's pay as you go. You don't have to come to everyone. It's very come as you are, you know, coming in and out. It's not like you're bound to everyone. So sometimes it's a really small group, but sometimes you get like 10, 15. But the kind of smallness is, yeah, like a good thing. Like I keep thinking I want it to be like 100. But then I'm like, I think that would take away the kind of intimacy and the specialness of those like close conversations. And most of the people are people like I've met, or I've like worked with, or we've had some kind of connection. So they're all very lovely people. But yeah, I'm really passionate about it. And we recently did a book club in the woods. So Mark, obviously you came and Julie, another, another local author came along. And that was a bit of an experiment just to be like, can we do a different format of book club? So, it wasn't like read a book beforehand. It was, you know, we just have some chats with authors, talk about the love of reading and curiosity and learning. And yeah, Mark, I think it was really good, wasn't it? It was like, quite memorable. MARK It was fantastic. It was such a lovely, I mean, there's, I think there's two threads that I kind of want to pick up on. And we've had a lovely comment from Nick Rawle, who's a local photographer, you know, very well talking about, you know, getting out of the house, meeting people, completely vital if you're working on your own, or out in the sticks. And we are social monkeys, as he said. Yeah, we don't operate when deprived of that social connections, which is very true. The books in the woods, certainly from my point of view, as a very generously invited author, so thank you for that. But also, as you say, sitting around talking, sharing stories, talking about stories, but doing it in real life. And the whole ‘outdoorsyness’, the whole round of the campfire. I mean, there is the whole marketing campfire or marketing camp network, isn't there? But the actual sitting around the campfire, whilst you've got the sort of the jargony version of that, but you've got the literal version of sitting there, rubbing your hands, keeping warm. And we're talking stories. And this is the other thing that I wanted to kind of bring in from you, because I know how passionate you are about this. Storytelling comes back to the marketing, comes back to the personal brand, but also, you know, just very well written, very well crafted, beautiful stories. Why do they light you up as much as they do? What is it about stories that just kind of make your eyes glow and your heart sing? SALLY Yeah, that's such a lovely question. Yeah, I feel a bit emotional. That's weird. I had a tiring week. I think stories are part of humanity. Like, I think they draw people together. And I think we don't even realise how much stories are like part of everyday life. Like, even like a little quick anecdote, or quick story you share with your partner or your neighbour, or like, I don't know, a customer, like insights or like, everything we do is like little quick mini stories, or even longer stories. And I think that's how you connect with people. And that's how you engage and get people on board with things. But I also think stories can help people feel feelings and reflect. And, you know, there's loads of, you know, we've all heard these stories where like, a teenager's read a story, and it's like, they've seen themselves in the book. And then they've gone, oh, that's helped me understand my identity. Or, you know, even later in life, if you've had like grief, or like trauma, you read a book, and it like, mirrors what you're thinking. I think it helps you become even more human. And it helps you kind of broaden what you're doing. So, you know, like learn about different experiences, different cultures, different backgrounds. Like, you know, me, especially as a child living in a very white Oxfordshire, I felt like reading books and learning about different, you know, different countries, different backgrounds, different people was really like exciting. Like, you've just got a whole world of like adventure in your books. And it's not the way like, it's called you're learning facts, or you're learning about like, horrible wars. You know, it's a softer kind of kinder, more fun way of learning about the world. Sorry, I've just gone off on one a little bit there. MARK No, no, keep going. Keep going. It's good. I was kind of thinking, as you were saying that, I mean, like you say, everything, the way we communicate in every kind of format, platform, medium, whatever, is storytelling. Even the LinkedIn feed, I suppose, story after story after story. But what I find fascinating, I don't know if you agree with this, is that when I see the stories on LinkedIn, I don't, I don't engage with them as much or as often. I feel slightly sort of polarised by them. I see them more as kind of opinion, fact, they're almost like dehumanised, whereas someone could say exactly the same thing around the campfire. And that sparks more curiosity. And that sparks more intrigue and a willingness to kind of have that dialogue. What would you, what do you think to that? SALLY Yeah, no, yeah. Do you know, I do a LinkedIn workshop where it's literally called like how to get past the LinkedIn cringe. And I've been doing it recently in Oxfordshire. And one of the first slides is where I talk about, where I take the little, a little bit of the mick out of LinkedIn, where, you know, when people like, it was my wedding, this is what my wedding taught me about B2B sales. Or like, there'll be like, I went to Tesco and cried in the car park. I feel there's a lot of crying in car parks or supermarkets. This is what it taught me about sales. And you know, like, some of that is a bit like artificial and a bit like LinkedIn bro world. But it also is a bit like shoehorning in a lesson, just don't do that. And I think maybe where like, the uncomfortableness of LinkedIn is that you're trying to be like, this is a lesson learned. Whereas when you're around the campfire, it's a bit more genuine and spontaneous, or kind of natural. And it feels like you're just having that kind of, yeah, it's just a genuine conversation. And if it does come up, that just feels a bit more easy and a bit more chill. Like, you know, when we had, we had the chats around the fire with the book club, I had a certain amount of questions, but I kept it quite like, roomy to have like, ad hoc discussions, and to go off on tangents. And I think you have, you can kind of, you know, create a space where, you know, you've got that room to breathe, and you can be spontaneous with it. Whereas I guess with LinkedIn, it is a little bit formative. And it's very creative. And it's not live and happening and reactive as much as it could be. I don't know. Is that a good answer? Yeah. MARK I think, well, it's a good answer in so much as I'm sort of nodding in agreement. Yeah, I think any social media platform, you know, there's that kind of protection of the screen is that you can type whatever you want, you're hidden behind the screen. Whereas I mean, again, I saw a post this morning, which really intrigued me, but I chose not to comment. But it was, it was quite, quite sort of a polarising sort of opinion. And I saw no way of contributing to that. And this is me. And again, this comes back to the fears, I guess, but I saw no way of contributing to that in a way that wouldn't stir animosity. SALLY Yeah. MARK Whereas, whereas if we were having exactly the same conversation about exactly the same topic, sat in the room together. I think that kind of nuance against the sort of the body language, the kind of the cues you pick up from each other, I think it would be easier and more comfortable and healthier. Just then sort of, you know, ask the question, share the opinion, invite the kind of challenge. I don't know, again, that could be as much my fears and my kind of... SALLY No, I do think you have to be careful to choose the correct platform and to use the right context and space for what you need. Like, I do think LinkedIn isn't the space necessary for polarising views. I think they are offline chats or chats in safer spaces where, yeah, you get that nuance, where you get that live reaction. And yeah, I don't, yeah, personally, I guess it's what everyone wants to do. I don't think LinkedIn is necessarily the place for that kind of thing. And I do think, in the kind of modern world, it's good to, let's have a chat. Let's just take it offline and talk about things. MARK Yeah. Yeah. It's a difficult one, because again, we should be able to talk about everything everywhere and feel safe to do so. Yeah. SALLY And I do think that, but I do think, yeah, the kind of the disconnect of writing something online and then maybe like four hours later, you come back to it. You haven't had a chance to respond to things as and when, and then the conversation might have changed and then it might have steered off in a different way. So it's, you can't really compare it to kind of a normal conversation. MARK Yeah. Yeah. That's a really important point, actually. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. It's not, it's not a normal conversation, is it? As much as we would like it to be, and again, as much as we try to bring ourselves and our authority and our authenticity and our vulnerability, the screen is that barrier. It is, in many ways, a misused comfort zone, I guess. SALLY Yeah. And I think things can be misconstrued like around certain language or even just phrasing like sarcasm or whatever, or even just like a turn of phrase might be read differently for whatever reason. Even by your mood, you might receive something differently. Whereas if you were talking to someone, there's like a hundred different ways you could react to something because you're looking at eye contact, you're looking at posture, you're looking at, you know, there's so much more you're getting. Yeah. But yeah, we could talk about that all day, couldn't we? MARK We absolutely could. So, I'm going to, well, my last big question to you, I think, before we actually round out, and I think this is an important one, I'm going to really put you on the spot because storyteller, marketer, book club leader, where and when can we expect Sally's book? SALLY Oh my goodness. Yeah. I didn't expect you to ask that. Yeah. Yeah. I need to write a book. So, for my degree, I did English with creative writing. And for my dissertation, I did like a novel, essentially. And yeah, you know, when you just, yeah, neglect it a bit. So I've just been doing marketing copy for ages. Yeah, I have got an idea of doing like a mixture of a fiction book and a nonfiction book together, which might be a bit of a mess, but making it like articles, blogs, and then short stories all in one. Because I think, again, we all have really short time, you know, concentration span. I think it would be quite a good way to like get people back into reading. Yeah, I need to decide. I haven't, yeah, I've got loads of ideas. I did see a woman's prize thing on Instagram, where they were like, send us 10,000 words by January. And I was like, could I do that? Like as a focus? Maybe it wasn't 10,000 words, it definitely felt attainable. That's quite a lot. So yeah, I think maybe setting myself sort of deadlines might be good. Yeah, you guys did inspire me when you and Gilly were talking. That did make me think, I'd like to write. MARK Gilly Mulford, who again was a guest on the show back in June, her first book is an incredible read. And it's an incredible story. And the fact that she turned it around so quickly, simply because she was pouring her story onto the page, makes it even more powerful. Yeah, it's remarkable. Yeah. SALLY Yeah, she like dumbfounded me, to be honest, it's so inspiring. Yeah, the time is now. MARK Yeah. A very, very generous lady, Gilly. And yeah, no, well, that's it. So, I'm gonna, maybe I should sort of check in and say, how's the 10,000 words going for January? SALLY Might not be 10,000 words, but it was a chunky amount, but enough that it didn't feel like crazy, you know, that's a couple of months. Yeah, I should, it would be good. Even if I just did it for myself, I think it would be quite therapeutic. MARK So yeah, it's a very cathartic exercise for sure. Sally, I'm going to start to sort of wrap things up. But in terms of where people can find you. So people have heard you speak, they're intrigued by what you can do as a marketer, and perhaps you want to join the book club. Where can we find Sally Day online? SALLY Thank you. Yeah. So yeah, Sally Day consultancy and training. Yeah, if you're interested in that, just Google me. I'm on LinkedIn, you can look at my website. If you're really wanting to get involved in the book club, everyone is welcome. It's Sally's Nonfiction Book Club, which is long and very, you know, not off the tongue. But it's I'm on LinkedIn and on Instagram, just as Sally's Nonfiction Book Club. So you can follow me there. But yeah, it'd be lovely if people get in touch and want to join the book club. That'd be really cool. MARK Yeah. Sally's Nonfiction Book Club does exactly what it says. So it's a very good name. SALLY Yeah, I haven't. I have been thinking I want to do fiction. Oh, I should have thought of that. But yeah, it's Sally's Nonfiction Book Club for now. So yeah, it's all good. MARK Sally, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. It's always a pleasure to chat to you as well. SALLY Thank you. And thank you for the opportunity. Thank you so much. MARK No, that's an absolute delight. So we always have lots of really good conversations. I knew this would be no different. So again, I really appreciate it. Thank you everybody else for tuning in. I hope this has been of value to you all. Again, as Sally says, you can find her online if you've got any more questions about crafting support, or the book club, or just to share stories and go for a good coffee. SALLY Yeah, anything is all good. Yeah. MARK Amazing. The next Mind Monkeys episode is Monday, the 19th of October. We'll be live online here again on LinkedIn, where my guest is Emma Devine, who is an author and mindset coach. So really looking forward to that one. But until then, again, Sally, thank you so much. See you in the woods very soon. Thank you for tuning in, dear listener, and see you later. SALLY Thank you so much, everyone.